"Hakutsuru" and Karate, Does it exist?

Is "Hakutsuru" something theat is proven to be related to the Karate of Okinawa?

Does Fuzhou White Crane have any real link to the "Hakutsuru" as seen in many Okinawan styles?

Many within the martial arts world state that their exists a link from Okinawan Karate to that of Fuzhou White Crane.

To me, Fuzhou White Crane as a unique art form and tradition has no verifiable link to Okinawan Karate and even less to that which is commonly termed "Hakutsuru."

Okinawans did not get their materials from Fuzhou. They may have acquired it from Fujian / Taiwan or any other part of China but not Fuzhou.

Karate researchers are better off looking at Ngo Chor (5 Elders) and Tai Chor (Grand Ancestor) rather that White Crane per se. These 2 styles are greatly influenced by Fukien White Crane and these could be their original source.

The Tiger Kung Fu is the very one that the Uechi Ryu people align themselves with.

Karate contains very little White Crane. There is some Chinese connection but definitely not White Crane. Most Karate folks talk about Fuzhou White Crane but nothing they do comes close. Goju-Ryu seems more aligned to Ngo Chor. Uechi-Ryu would seem to reflect the essence of Tiger Kung Fu within its technical make-up.

Fuzhou White Crane is a totally unique art and is in no way related to modern "Crane Karate" and "Hakutsuru" as taught by other groups.

Their purported Crane kata are nothing like what is done in Fuzhou White Crane – especially in relation to fundamental root dissimilarities and not stylistics. It would seem that the only thing they obtained out of Fuzhou is the names of their katas.

As for "Hakutsuru", a few think that White Crane is just a couple of crane styles blocks and crane beak hand strikes! Much (if not all) of that passed off as "Hakutsuru" has no relation to real Fuzhou White Crane.

There is no passing on of the He Quan Quan Jue or Crane Fist Fist Poems in Okinawan karate as is seen within Fuzhou White Crane, no Waveform jin or other essential aspects of the art.

Are those who lay claim to teaching a "Hakusturu" Kata simply misguided?

What are your thoughts on the subject?

Just a comment.

But, this subject matter is so far off of just about anyone's radar as to make it almost completely irrelevant.

YAH, BUT WEREN'T YOU THE ONE WHO SEVERAL YEARS BACK WAS TEACHING THAT KATA(oops=caps lock) and offering it in seminars?

Yeah, fair call. But that was years ago when I was connected to Okinawa. I have since moved on from this and began questioning the veracity of "Hakutsuru" in relation to Fujian White Crane. Discussions please!

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Originally Posted by Minghequan

Yeah, fair call. But that was years ago when I was connected to Okinawa. I have since moved on from this and began questioning the veracity of "Hakutsuru" in relation to Fujian White Crane. Discussions please!

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ahh, granted. We are all in the process of evolution. My Gung-Fu is not the same today as it was last year, or last week, for that matter.;)

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Originally Posted by Minghequan

Karate researchers are better off looking at Ngo Chor (5 Elders) and Tai Chor (Grand Ancestor) rather that White Crane per se. These 2 styles are greatly influenced by Fukien White Crane and these could be their original source.

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Ngo Chor often draws comparisons to Gojuryu. In their book, they do side by side comparison.

ok, you seem to contradict yourself here as well. You say,"rather than White Crane," and in the same breath, you say,"These two styles are greatly influenced by Fukien White Crane andthese could be their original source."
well then, there you have it.

Uechi Ryu

have 3 animal the tiger ,dragon and crane..but seem to be a lot of southern mantis ....just my two cent here

according to the great chinese master ruan dong -

Calling Crane Wushu, or Ming He Quan, is characterized by the breathing techniques used to express energy - thus "calling" crane. Rapid, swirling hand movements combined with delicate jumps and the calling sounds result in a stunning display. It was invented by the famous Master Xie Zhong Xiang towards the end of the 19th century in Fuzhou City.

Master Xie is a famous name in the history of Wushu, well known not only in China, but also in Okinawa and Japan, where he is given the nickname Ryu Ryu Ko, a variation of Chinese Ru Ru Ge. Many of Okinawan Karate styles draw their lineage from him.

The only thing I can think of is Go Ken Ki taught Ba Bu Lian/Pai Pu Ren and Nei Pai/Er Shi Ba Bu in the last geneation on Okinawa, and was friends with Uechi and Miyagi and Mabuni. He probably taught Hohan Soken, and that group is the one who speaks of the secret Hakutsura kata.

The rest of Okinawan Karate is probably partially derived from spillage of Fujian Quan Fa - probably more Lo Han Quan, and indigenous fists like Kojo's, and Goten no Te.

Also, since the Bubishi is actually a White Crane Quan Pu passed down, they often try to draw a connection in that way, but that is just trying to have Okinawan Karate draw from the Fujian White Crane root, when it has no direct lineage...

My thought is that Sakugawa, Matsumura, Matsumora, Oyadomari were the real founders of their arts and then imported systems like Higaonna's and Uechi's were composites of Okinawan Tode and Chinese Fujian fists.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,

Somethings in Okinawan karate are uniquely Okinawan and others uniquely "kung fuish" and one can't ignore the simialrities between Sanchin and Tensho and Sam Jian ( or any other spelling you like) and even Siu Lim Tao.

They are to close to not be related and to different to be "the same".

the great master ruan dong is wrong :confused::confused::eek:

Sanchin is, of course, a Chinese set common to Fujian Fist , but it has been modified in closed fist form on Okinawa. Tensho is a set created by Miyagi Chojun based on the Bubishi White Crane Quan Pu.

WCK's SNT set is similar to White Crane hand movements because it probably derived from White Crane. If one looks at the 5 element hands of White Crane, you can easily see the equivalent in WCK.

As for Ruan Dong being incorrect, I don't think that is the way to say it. I think that various historians have different pieces of information to discuss.

Best regards,

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Originally Posted by TenTigers

ahh, granted. We are all in the process of evolution. My Gung-Fu is not the same today as it was last year, or last week, for that matter.;)

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You should see some of the nonsense I posted here about 4 years ago... I lived and learned. ;)

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Originally Posted by SimonM

You should see some of the nonsense I posted here about 4 years ago... I lived and learned. ;)

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yeah? What about the s*** yer posting now?








Kidding!!!!! I just couldn't resist a great straight line!:p