Why is there not a single WC fighter, anywhere!!!!!!!!!

Hey guys,

I won't lie, I'm getting a little bummed here. I love WC and I know I'll never stop studying it but my outlook is really starting to change on the endgame of what WC can really do. Aside from the MT fights back in Ip Man's day where WC won a few rounds, why is there not a single piece of footage anywhere of WC dominating in a true fight, whether it be competition or street????

On a personal level I'm confident that I can handle my own against the 'average' opponent. I've used it a few times in a few situations but I used the timing I've learned, more than anything in those fights, with balance and a straight punch. Borderline WC at the end of the day. But who's to say that something like boxing couldn't teach timing even more efficiently? Boxer's have d#mn good timing!

It seems that WC and all this theory, that in a lot of respects guys just make up everyday, is just a gentlemen's club for WC only. I've seen and felt good WC dominate other WC but have never, as much as I incessantly look for it, seen a single example of a WC guy doing anything to an actual worthy opponent. There's something inherently wrong there.

WC against an average joe, hands down, you can kick some a$$. But WC against another trained fighter, never seen, ever!!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing WC, I love it, but I'm also trying to be realistic in it's effectiveness. No offense to anyone anywhere but the few sparring clips that are even available are laughable to say the least. Two, they're not really fighting and three, even if the WC guy gets an upper hand, it's usually because the opponent is not very good himself.

Some guys will say, "well, competition has rules" or "WC attacks are too deadly" or "the true WC fighters don't boast themselves" or "all you gotta do is rush him when he kicks or do this or that when he punches". Screw all of that!!! There is NOTHING!!! Anywhere!! Video and photos have been available since long before WC was even exposed to the world and there is absolutely nothing!!! I don't know about anyone else here but that really bothers me.

I think WC is effective as self-defense and will bode reasonably well against the average attacker but I'm seriously getting depressed in the fact that WC isn't very effective against another skilled opponent, unless that opponent happens to practice WC too. And that just sucks. I'm tired of demo's, I'm tired of theory, I'm tired of only Chi Sau. I want to see 'proof' that WC can hold it's own in the fighting world!!!

Check out this video of K1 knockouts. Almost every single attack I see in here would break right through a WC guys "structure" and he would get knocked the **** out just like everyone else!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgrC8XfrL18


Anyone else here feel the same way?


_

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mvbrown21

Hey guys,

I won't lie, I'm getting a little bummed here. I love WC and I know I'll never stop studying it but my outlook is really starting to change on the endgame of what WC can really do. Aside from the MT fights back in Ip Man's day where WC won a few rounds, why is there not a single piece of footage anywhere of WC dominating in a true fight, whether it be competition or street????

On a personal level I'm confident that I can handle my own against the 'average' opponent. I've used it a few times in a few situations but I used the timing I've learned, more than anything in those fights, with balance and a straight punch. Borderline WC at the end of the day. But who's to say that something like boxing couldn't teach timing even more efficiently? Boxer's have d#mn good timing!

It seems that WC and all this theory, that in a lot of respects guys just make up everyday, is just a gentlemen's club for WC only. I've seen and felt good WC dominate other WC but have never, as much as I incessantly look for it, seen a single example of a WC guy doing anything to an actual worthy opponent. There's something inherently wrong there.

WC against an average joe, hands down, you can kick some a$$. But WC against another trained fighter, never seen, ever!!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing WC, I love it, but I'm also trying to be realistic in it's effectiveness. No offense to anyone anywhere but the few sparring clips that are even available are laughable to say the least. Two, they're not really fighting and three, even if the WC guy gets an upper hand, it's usually because the opponent is not very good himself.

Some guys will say, "well, competition has rules" or "WC attacks are too deadly" or "the true WC fighters don't boast themselves" or "all you gotta do is rush him when he kicks or do this or that when he punches". Screw all of that!!! There is NOTHING!!! Anywhere!! Video and photos have been available since long before WC was even exposed to the world and there is absolutely nothing!!! I don't know about anyone else here but that really bothers me.

I think WC is effective as self-defense and will bode reasonably well against the average attacker but I'm seriously getting depressed in the fact that WC isn't very effective against another skilled opponent, unless that opponent happens to practice WC too. And that just sucks. I'm tired of demo's, I'm tired of theory, I'm tired of only Chi Sau. I want to see 'proof' that WC can hold it's own in the fighting world!!!

Check out this video of K1 knockouts. Almost every single attack I see in here would break right through a WC guys "structure" and he would get knocked the **** out just like everyone else!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgrC8XfrL18


Anyone else here feel the same way?


_

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Think about what you are saying here. Why Wing Chun. Tell me how many Mantis people do you see fighting effectively in the ring, or just on video? How about other gung fu? How many of them are out there wining fights on video? The only thing you see is street fighting and MMA, and MMA was started strictly for that purpose. How about boxers? How about all the other forms of martial art? I see them billed all the time as Bjj specialists and Karate specialists and boxers, but never see much different from what everyone else does. So why pick on WC? In my entire lifetime, due to the type of work I did, I had something like maybe 200 fights, or was involved in that many different altercations, and not once was it caught on tape. Video did not exist like it is today, and one would have to take video tape. No one ran around with a movie camera. And if I had caught them taping me I would have taken the camera or broken it, because it might lead to my being sued or worse.
The only people I know of that run around taking video of fights are the MMA types anyway. Besides, in all my years I have not met another WC person on the street or anywhere for that matter. So if I had a camera and carried it with me everywhere, I would still not have footage of WC being fought. I think way too much weight is given to this video thing. You are a WC fighter, so find out for yourself if it works.

Touché Matt!

You have only so much time to train... So you must invest it wisely if you want the best achievable results in the boxing method you have chosen. There is no time for Fantasy-Fu: Endless Chi-Sao games with no real translation to sparring/fighting, theory on top of theory, assumption over assumption...

I think that Ving Tsun can be a great boxing method if you focus on the essential: Does what I do work in the chaos of a fight? How well does it translate into fighting? Am I doing frequent reality checks? Is the method efficient? Is my training being efficient? What habits am I training? Am I actually spending all of my training time on achieving the tools necessary in a fight (punching power, mobility, speedy yet balanced footwork, timing, distance control, etc.)?

There are nowadays too many Ving Tsun Trekkies out there. Gotta work hard not to be one...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mvbrown21

Hey guys,

I won't lie, I'm getting a little bummed here. I love WC and I know I'll never stop studying it but my outlook is really starting to change on the endgame of what WC can really do. Aside from the MT fights back in Ip Man's day where WC won a few rounds, why is there not a single piece of footage anywhere of WC dominating in a true fight, whether it be competition or street????

On a personal level I'm confident that I can handle my own against the 'average' opponent. I've used it a few times in a few situations but I used the timing I've learned, more than anything in those fights, with balance and a straight punch. Borderline WC at the end of the day. But who's to say that something like boxing couldn't teach timing even more efficiently? Boxer's have d#mn good timing!

It seems that WC and all this theory, that in a lot of respects guys just make up everyday, is just a gentlemen's club for WC only. I've seen and felt good WC dominate other WC but have never, as much as I incessantly look for it, seen a single example of a WC guy doing anything to an actual worthy opponent. There's something inherently wrong there.

WC against an average joe, hands down, you can kick some a$$. But WC against another trained fighter, never seen, ever!!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing WC, I love it, but I'm also trying to be realistic in it's effectiveness. No offense to anyone anywhere but the few sparring clips that are even available are laughable to say the least. Two, they're not really fighting and three, even if the WC guy gets an upper hand, it's usually because the opponent is not very good himself.

Some guys will say, "well, competition has rules" or "WC attacks are too deadly" or "the true WC fighters don't boast themselves" or "all you gotta do is rush him when he kicks or do this or that when he punches". Screw all of that!!! There is NOTHING!!! Anywhere!! Video and photos have been available since long before WC was even exposed to the world and there is absolutely nothing!!! I don't know about anyone else here but that really bothers me.

I think WC is effective as self-defense and will bode reasonably well against the average attacker but I'm seriously getting depressed in the fact that WC isn't very effective against another skilled opponent, unless that opponent happens to practice WC too. And that just sucks. I'm tired of demo's, I'm tired of theory, I'm tired of only Chi Sau. I want to see 'proof' that WC can hold it's own in the fighting world!!!

Check out this video of K1 knockouts. Almost every single attack I see in here would break right through a WC guys "structure" and he would get knocked the **** out just like everyone else!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgrC8XfrL18


Anyone else here feel the same way?


_

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Post of the year in my opinion
Refreshingly honest and hard to (if not impossible) to argue against

I think youve hit it on the head with this line.....
"I think WC is effective as self-defense and will bode reasonably well against the average attacker but I'm seriously getting depressed in the fact that WC isn't very effective against another skilled opponent, unless that opponent happens to practice WC too."

Youre right... its a self defense system to protect you in a street situation.
And thats where it ends in my opinion
Ive done WC for 21 years now (not so much the last 5) and now i Box/MT..... quite simply they are better systems if you want to reach a high level of fighting.
I wont speak for the other combat styles (BJJ, wrestling etc) ,as i dont do them, but i would think the same in regards to those.

As you state, the evidence is there to support these styles, but theres none for WC.
Dont get me wrong, i love WC but im realistic in what i expect out of it.

Once again, great post
GlennR

Hello, newbie perspective here...

I've recently started training in JKD. I have a real interest and respect for Wing Chun and it's some of the most enjoyable parts of my workouts. However, I see WC as a very valuable part of a bigger system of fighting (JKD or whatever one wants to call it) rather than the complete system itself. There are vital skills, concepts, and tools (e.g. pak sao, forward pressure, economy of motion) that one can use from WC during a real fight and/or full contact event; so looking for instances of people successfully using elements of WC during a fight seems more logical to me than looking for folks using exclusively WC during a fight.

One of the most profound posts I've read here recently was when Phil Redmond stated something to the effect of him being a Martial Artist who specializes in Wing Chun rather than being strictly a WC man. I really like this philosophy.

Just because one doesn't see a plethora of videos on YouTube of fighters effectively using nothing but Wing Chun during full contact fights doesn't equate, in my mind anyways, to WC lacking practicality in today's world. It simply speaks to the wisdom of using some of the tools of WC, which have withstood the test of time, as one means to an end rather than the only means to an end.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po

Think about what you are saying here. Why Wing Chun. Tell me how many Mantis people do you see fighting effectively in the ring, or just on video? How about other gung fu? How many of them are out there wining fights on video? The only thing you see is street fighting and MMA, and MMA was started strictly for that purpose. How about boxers? How about all the other forms of martial art? I see them billed all the time as Bjj specialists and Karate specialists and boxers, but never see much different from what everyone else does. So why pick on WC? In my entire lifetime, due to the type of work I did, I had something like maybe 200 fights, or was involved in that many different altercations, and not once was it caught on tape. Video did not exist like it is today, and one would have to take video tape. No one ran around with a movie camera. And if I had caught them taping me I would have taken the camera or broken it, because it might lead to my being sued or worse.
The only people I know of that run around taking video of fights are the MMA types anyway. Besides, in all my years I have not met another WC person on the street or anywhere for that matter. So if I had a camera and carried it with me everywhere, I would still not have footage of WC being fought. I think way too much weight is given to this video thing. You are a WC fighter, so find out for yourself if it works.

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A good statement Lee.

joy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po

Think about what you are saying here. Why Wing Chun. Tell me how many Mantis people do you see fighting effectively in the ring, or just on video? How about other gung fu? How many of them are out there wining fights on video? The only thing you see is street fighting and MMA, and MMA was started strictly for that purpose. How about boxers? How about all the other forms of martial art? I see them billed all the time as Bjj specialists and Karate specialists and boxers, but never see much different from what everyone else does. So why pick on WC? In my entire lifetime, due to the type of work I did, I had something like maybe 200 fights, or was involved in that many different altercations, and not once was it caught on tape. Video did not exist like it is today, and one would have to take video tape. No one ran around with a movie camera. And if I had caught them taping me I would have taken the camera or broken it, because it might lead to my being sued or worse.
The only people I know of that run around taking video of fights are the MMA types anyway. Besides, in all my years I have not met another WC person on the street or anywhere for that matter. So if I had a camera and carried it with me everywhere, I would still not have footage of WC being fought. I think way too much weight is given to this video thing. You are a WC fighter, so find out for yourself if it works.

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It's not just specifically Ving Tsun, but rather all the schools that lost touch with the realities of confrontation. It's the schools that instead of spending a good amount of each training sessions on the heavy bag and sparring, get off at the "awesomeness" of useless Chi-Sao tricks, that like to dress in silky pajamas and organize "demo teams", that spend half of the training session talking about the importance of Chi instead of working on the precision of their punch, that claim useless authenticity without ever producing people capable to match up with an average Joe boxer, that by letting their students live in that fantasy world are straight-out lying to them and putting their lives in jeopardy by providing a false sense of security and skill, and that simply do not live up to the promise they are doing by advertising themselves as a "martial art".

MMA is the best thing that happened to martial arts in the last decade. It exposed the non-sense that was going on in many schools and served as a wake-up call. You will see in MMA many representatives of the methods that are known for being contact oriented (Muay Thai, boxing, some Karate, etc.) as they have continued being in touch with the realities of fighting and have continued to hone real skills. You only see a few representatives of other methods as the majority of them are simply not at the same level. One thing is to be top-dog in your own school or compared to the average non-trained Joe, but the current state of MMA and its successful competitors is a whooooole 'nother level, they are simply put "professionals". You won't have an idea of this unless you actually spend time sparring with somebody at that level.

Why dismiss video as evidence? Go back to the stone age? It's fine and dandy to have had "200 fights", but what level of opponents was this with? We are still largely living in the Fantasy-Fu era of unsupported claims. A healthy dose of skepticism and common sense puts an end to this. Don't take this wrong, I am not picking on you, but rather on the prevalent blind faith and parrot-like repeating of what sacrosanct Sifus tell their students...

My WC instructor had 37 pro kickboxing fights and over 100 amateur fights. He also won a "world invitational" KF championship in HK in 1982. This was a bit before video became mainstream.

His students have recently succeeded in MMA, continuous sparring, and BJJ competitions. There are vids, but they don't get posted on Youtube for keyboard warriors to snipe over. That is why most don't post their stuff.

Real fighting with WC doesn't closely resemble what you practice in the forms or what was shown in Ip Man 1 & 2.

Look for videos of Alan Orr's students, both in older posts on this forum and on the 'tube, you'll see some WC fighters succeeding in the ring. They may not look like how you expect WC fighters to look, though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po

Think about what you are saying here. Why Wing Chun. Tell me how many Mantis people do you see fighting effectively in the ring, or just on video? How about other gung fu? How many of them are out there wining fights on video? The only thing you see is street fighting and MMA, and MMA was started strictly for that purpose. How about boxers? How about all the other forms of martial art? I see them billed all the time as Bjj specialists and Karate specialists and boxers, but never see much different from what everyone else does. So why pick on WC? In my entire lifetime, due to the type of work I did, I had something like maybe 200 fights, or was involved in that many different altercations, and not once was it caught on tape. Video did not exist like it is today, and one would have to take video tape. No one ran around with a movie camera. And if I had caught them taping me I would have taken the camera or broken it, because it might lead to my being sued or worse.
The only people I know of that run around taking video of fights are the MMA types anyway. Besides, in all my years I have not met another WC person on the street or anywhere for that matter. So if I had a camera and carried it with me everywhere, I would still not have footage of WC being fought. I think way too much weight is given to this video thing. You are a WC fighter, so find out for yourself if it works.

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I understand what you're saying and I actually thought about that. A few things though. Wing Chun is the most popular form of 'practiced' gung fu in the world. It's not a small sect like some of the other styles you mentioned. There are more than enough guys that there 'should' be something by now. There are a few who have tried too, but failed miserably.

A few things for thought. I don't know about you but I've never met any MMA guys walking around on the street either. In fact, the only one's you'll run into regularly are boxers. Also, out of your 200 or so altercations, how many of them were actually trained, experienced fighters?

I don't deny WC effectiveness against the 'average' opponent. I said that in my original post. I think it's great for basic self-defense, used it in a few fights, and I enjoy practicing it immensely. So I'm not bashing WC. I questioning WC's ability against trained, experienced fighters. Is it against WC philosophy to compete? Why have the few who have competed essentially thrown their WC out the window the second that first punch came? If muay thai, etc. fight the way they train, why don't WC guys fight the way they train when against a skilled opponent?

This whole idea that WC is the most economical way to move the human body in a fight becomes absurd when faced against a worthy opponent who just fights naturally. These are serious issues that one must consider, because you might have taken on 200 guys, but that 201st just might be the one who actually knows how to fight.


To Vernon and anerlich

I understand that core concepts might be all one see's from WC when applied. But you know that those core concepts are exhibited by almost every single other combat art too! In fact the only core concept that might be different is the pak sao and the 'attempt' to disrupt the other guys defense. I won't lie, it will freak someone out, but a skilled fighter will learn your game quick. I don't know if any of the guys on this forum know this but both a 'distance fighter' and a 'grappler' want you to try to close the gap, so that they don't have to, and then they try to break your timing, and if their timing is good, you're screwed.

Simple fact, MT looks like MT when they fight, Boxing looks like Boxing, BJJ looks like BJJ, Karate, for the most part(and depends on type), looks like Karate and on and on it goes. Why the h$ll do WC guys not compete against skilled opponents and why on earth does it not look even remotely close when the few that have do? It looks like more of a conglomerate of all of the above! That doesn't make you think about a few things, at all?

And Vernon, glad to hear you found a JKD school. That's what I wanted back when I first started martial arts. I love Wing Chun, I really do but just like your founder, Bruce Lee, said, believed, and tested "The Highest Art is No Art, The Highest Form is No Form" I always understood the concept of that quote but I think I'm only really starting to understand what it truly means now, 10 years later.

_______________________________


This whole idea that I've spouted forth in this thread literally was, I went to sleep one night, woke up the next day, and said WTF. I was reading theory after theory, dispute after dispute in this forum, and I honestly just got tired of these declarations of authenticity or these disputes over how to properly perform a certain move/drill. What hit me smack in the head was that all this talk/theory was useless to what really mattered.

I didn't learn WC to learn an art like some here have, and that's perfectly fine, I learned WC to learn how to fight. My Sifu gave me no illusions of WC. There's not even talk of theory in our classes. He simply presented that this is what I have to offer, this is what I know how to teach. That's it, nothing more, nothing less. I blame the current WC culture for the illusions, but more importantly, I blame myself. This isn't 1960's Hong Kong anymore, I respect Wing Chun Gung Fu for what it is and I will probably train in it my whole life, but my mindset has changed and my awareness has awoken to 2011. So why don't we all wake up and stop being irresponsible with the false security we are giving not only ourselves, but our fellow Wing Chun practitioners

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mvbrown21

Hey guys,

I won't lie, I'm getting a little bummed here. I love WC and I know I'll never stop studying it but my outlook is really starting to change on the endgame of what WC can really do. Aside from the MT fights back in Ip Man's day where WC won a few rounds, why is there not a single piece of footage anywhere of WC dominating in a true fight, whether it be competition or street????

On a personal level I'm confident that I can handle my own against the 'average' opponent. I've used it a few times in a few situations but I used the timing I've learned, more than anything in those fights, with balance and a straight punch. Borderline WC at the end of the day. But who's to say that something like boxing couldn't teach timing even more efficiently? Boxer's have d#mn good timing!

It seems that WC and all this theory, that in a lot of respects guys just make up everyday, is just a gentlemen's club for WC only. I've seen and felt good WC dominate other WC but have never, as much as I incessantly look for it, seen a single example of a WC guy doing anything to an actual worthy opponent. There's something inherently wrong there.

WC against an average joe, hands down, you can kick some a$$. But WC against another trained fighter, never seen, ever!!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing WC, I love it, but I'm also trying to be realistic in it's effectiveness. No offense to anyone anywhere but the few sparring clips that are even available are laughable to say the least. Two, they're not really fighting and three, even if the WC guy gets an upper hand, it's usually because the opponent is not very good himself.

Some guys will say, "well, competition has rules" or "WC attacks are too deadly" or "the true WC fighters don't boast themselves" or "all you gotta do is rush him when he kicks or do this or that when he punches". Screw all of that!!! There is NOTHING!!! Anywhere!! Video and photos have been available since long before WC was even exposed to the world and there is absolutely nothing!!! I don't know about anyone else here but that really bothers me.

I think WC is effective as self-defense and will bode reasonably well against the average attacker but I'm seriously getting depressed in the fact that WC isn't very effective against another skilled opponent, unless that opponent happens to practice WC too. And that just sucks. I'm tired of demo's, I'm tired of theory, I'm tired of only Chi Sau. I want to see 'proof' that WC can hold it's own in the fighting world!!!

Check out this video of K1 knockouts. Almost every single attack I see in here would break right through a WC guys "structure" and he would get knocked the **** out just like everyone else!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgrC8XfrL18


Anyone else here feel the same way?


_

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Mybrown , who is your WC teacher anyway ? You know kung fu alone has their own philosophies too . Why get into a fight when there ' s no need to prove yourself ? So far you were able to handle yourself using WC skills right ? Just keep on practicing , because one day you may face the the most toughest person on earth . This person can come in any walks of life , believe it or not . The chinese have a saying you may think that building is the tallest , but there is always a much taller building than the one you just seen .

In other words , just practice to improve yourself , no need to fight , talk yourself out of fighting , instead , because you know why , when the going gets tough , the tough gets going . When the person just wants to provoke you , just slam him . Because now that you know that you can handle yourself pretty good . You alone can seriuosly hurt people . too .
I practice WC too , but I don ' t think I should put it down or let it die , by stop practicing it . The main reason why some of the fights they had , where WC people gets beaten down is because , the WC people fighting are not good enough yet , that ' s why . Go and criticize WC infront of GM William Cheung he'll show you something .

Did you see the video clip of Capoiera Vs Wing Chun ? The wing chun man won against capoiera . And maybe there is wing chun fighters around , but maybe they rather practice for self fense , instead of using it for fighting . Because when you know you can kick ass , the next thing you know is you might end up hurting the person seriously or even worse killing the person .

Maybe you should be the next K- 1 fighter representing wing chun , it ' ll be good for you , this way you can encourage other people to , to do what you ' re doing .
But your sifu may not be proud though .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lance

Did you see the video clip of Capoiera Vs Wing Chun ? The wing chun man won against capoiera . And maybe there is wing chun fighters around , but maybe they rather practice for self fense , instead of using it for fighting . Because when you know you can kick ass , the next thing you know is you might end up hurting the person seriously or even worse killing the person .

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That video clip is from a movie. Someone on the set recorded it on their own camera. It's not real.

I'm not dissing Wing Chun, I love Wing Chun. I'm just sharing a revelation I've had, so to speak, and at least momentarily, it's a little depressing but liberating at the same time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mvbrown21

That video clip is from a movie. Someone on the set recorded it on their own camera. It's not real.

I'm not dissing Wing Chun, I love Wing Chun. I'm just sharing a revelation I've had, so to speak, and at least momentarily, it's a little depressing but liberating at the same time.

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Ultimately Matt, you have to make your own decision and i dont think you can get resolution from this issue but venting on a Internet Forum

Do yourself a favour, drop into a boxing/mt/bjj gym and do a couple of sessions and watch how they train.... especiallly the more serious among them.

Id love to hear you thoughts if you did
GlennR

First off, there are plenty of WC fighters around. Just because they dont go showing off on youtube doesnt mean they dont exist.

Second Who cares. If there where 10 champion fighters would that make YOU any better. Honestly you sound like the keyboard warriors on youtube who think they are tough because they see a clip of a good pro fighter and train the same style.

If you want to know if your WC works against other trained fighter, go fight them.
If it works examine why. If it doesnt work then find out why.

That way you will start to use what works for YOU and discard the rest

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mvbrown21

Hey guys,

I won't lie, I'm getting a little bummed here. I love WC and I know I'll never stop studying it but my outlook is really starting to change on the endgame of what WC can really do. Aside from the MT fights back in Ip Man's day where WC won a few rounds, why is there not a single piece of footage anywhere of WC dominating in a true fight, whether it be competition or street????

On a personal level I'm confident that I can handle my own against the 'average' opponent. I've used it a few times in a few situations but I used the timing I've learned, more than anything in those fights, with balance and a straight punch. Borderline WC at the end of the day. But who's to say that something like boxing couldn't teach timing even more efficiently? Boxer's have d#mn good timing!

It seems that WC and all this theory, that in a lot of respects guys just make up everyday, is just a gentlemen's club for WC only. I've seen and felt good WC dominate other WC but have never, as much as I incessantly look for it, seen a single example of a WC guy doing anything to an actual worthy opponent. There's something inherently wrong there.

WC against an average joe, hands down, you can kick some a$$. But WC against another trained fighter, never seen, ever!!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing WC, I love it, but I'm also trying to be realistic in it's effectiveness. No offense to anyone anywhere but the few sparring clips that are even available are laughable to say the least. Two, they're not really fighting and three, even if the WC guy gets an upper hand, it's usually because the opponent is not very good himself.

Some guys will say, "well, competition has rules" or "WC attacks are too deadly" or "the true WC fighters don't boast themselves" or "all you gotta do is rush him when he kicks or do this or that when he punches". Screw all of that!!! There is NOTHING!!! Anywhere!! Video and photos have been available since long before WC was even exposed to the world and there is absolutely nothing!!! I don't know about anyone else here but that really bothers me.

I think WC is effective as self-defense and will bode reasonably well against the average attacker but I'm seriously getting depressed in the fact that WC isn't very effective against another skilled opponent, unless that opponent happens to practice WC too. And that just sucks. I'm tired of demo's, I'm tired of theory, I'm tired of only Chi Sau. I want to see 'proof' that WC can hold it's own in the fighting world!!!

Check out this video of K1 knockouts. Almost every single attack I see in here would break right through a WC guys "structure" and he would get knocked the **** out just like everyone else!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgrC8XfrL18


Anyone else here feel the same way?


_

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Well, I fought and won full contact matches when not everyone had a camera like now.
So I know that WC can work. There are some fight clips on my website and my two youtube channels. Then there is Shawn Obasi.

WC as a flavoring can work. Like sweet and sour sauce it can do good things for a meal...but sweat and sour sauce alone won't give you the nutrition you need.

If wc were trained for combat it would have to be more vigorous and would probably look similar to mt. Then the question comes up, "If I am now training mt why do I need to do the traditional WC stuff?". Maybe you don't need to do bong sau/punch against a thousand single wimpy or even strong committed punches. I think this to be true.

I think WC peeps get hung up on making it look like WC I stead of training wc's core attributes to be used in a fight. Chi Sao is a fun and safe exercise that allows you to hit, get hit, and feel your oats in general. The emphasis is on safety: Safety in training and safety of ego. It's really easy to be dominant in chi Sao especially if you're stronger and taller. But even if you aren't a giant chi Sao training plateaus eventually leaving you shoving. If WC stopped chi Sao all together it would benefit WC training because then people would practice from a distance instead of from the arm touching range/. They'd have to actually use footwork, timing, and finally sensitivity once contact is made.

WC as attached fighting is a strange concept to me. Wrestling is the ultimate attached fighting so why not just study wrestling? The more metamorphasis WC goes under the more it is looking like mma. What does that tell you? That many WC people are evolving and don't need or want the so called traditional training methods anymore.