Mantis long weapons

I have been looking at pics on different mantis and non mantis school web sites and noticed that some instructors pose with long weapons such as kwan do, army sword and nine ring long handle swords. When they pose they are holding the weapon by the metal part where the rivets go through by the guard.

I have been taught that is wrong by a Praying Mantis Kung Fu master. The reason you do not hold the weapon there deals with distance and leverage. You can hold it just behind this piece but not on it.

He said if you where supposed to hold it there it would not have the protruding rivets or fasteners and the handle would not be so long. "why have such a long handle if you are going to hold it there most of the time"?

I was told that if a master saw you using the weapon that way he would know you are a novice. My teacher checks my weapons and I have to admit there is some of the finish worn off on a couple:( Probably from long ago:)

Any thoughts on this?

well he is right about the combat and forms technique the cma method is that of using weapons to there greatest extreme ie the da chung (i know im not good with pin yin) I submit sifu schulz was a novice in that pic to some extent. also shoalin has marked differences but i am not here to endorse, because i have made it the pursuit of my life to limit the weapons training.

Toooo many weapons forms takes away the art that one can use with gods endowments (this is just me guys dont get frustrated) i prefer to spend weapons time with gaston glock or mrs. springfield. Until they let me get a concealed sword license.
Now dont get me wrong my master said i have to get efficient with this and that and i did and do practice and am happy to show, but hands are my bag, so take my opinion on shoalin with a grain of salt. ask the Judge

good god do i get sidetracked, i need to work on this
sorry mantid
james

I cannot say from a traditional view of mantis if that is true or not, but what I do know is this:

When I used to use long weapons in the S.C.A, Any part of the handle I could get a grip with to use the weapon was a good part. Up to the hilt on my fake Kwan-DaoI could use the weapon to torue shields away from their owners arms then slide the blade through to kill them with it. I could not have done that amongst other manuvers if I had gone by the rules you suggested.

My thoughts on the usage of any weapon (or fighting techniques for that matter) is, there is a way you are suppose to use it & are trained to use it but when it comes down to using it for combat, as long as you are true to your training, a little "out of the box" usage does not hurt a thing. Matter of fact, in the example above it saved my @ss more than once.

(BTW, the S.C.A is a medieval re-enactment group. I wish I still had time for it.:( )

James

I dont mind side tracks. It brings up good points.

I think that even in mantis the weapons represent more of the combat aspect of the art. From what I understand many of the different mantis styles were being develpoed in the 1800's and the early 1900's during some very troubles times. It would be my assumption that the founding masters had the same feeling about their broad swords and spears as you do about your glock and springfield. The fighters who were doing battle on a regular basis probably relied on their weapons more than their hands.


Bei

Thanks for the input. I like your common sense approach. Use what works. This kind of gets back to the traditional mantis compared to the guys mixiing judo and other styles into thier mantis.

This is how mantis is classicaly taught but this is what works. It is probably the same as with the weapons.

But then again if we are going to use a kwan do in battle why hold it so close? BTW, I was also taught that the kwan do was used on something like a chariot or on horse back. You did not swing it around like many of the forms today. You just held it out an let the speed and weight do the work:)

I use the weapons in my training for strentgh and coordination training. Then the two person weapons sets can much more lethal while practicing than open hand sets.

I take your approch also. This is traditional and this is what I find works


In the end you are 100% right. A water bucket is great for battle if it works. Use what you have the way it works for you

Sorry for getting side tracked myself, but it is still early.

Thanks again

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Originally Posted by mantid1

Bei

Thanks for the input. I like your common sense approach. Use what works. This kind of gets back to the traditional mantis compared to the guys mixiing judo and other styles into thier mantis.

This is how mantis is classicaly taught but this is what works. It is probably the same as with the weapons.

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Don't get me wrong now, I am not an advocate of mixing anything in with my mantis; I was just saying "as long as you are true to your training" (same principles, ideas etc.,..) that fudging on a hand position is _not_ cheating during a combat situation.

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Originally Posted by mantid1

But then again if we are going to use a kwan do in battle why hold it so close? BTW, I was also taught that the kwan do was used on something like a chariot or on horse back. You did not swing it around like many of the forms today. You just held it out an let the speed and weight do the work:)

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Well,......the S.C.A didi not allow horses on the feild during combat & the weapon itself being a "fake" was made from rattan, closed cell foam & duct-tape. That pretty much edges out a few traditional techniques. I used it long-distance; I broke some shields with it ( probrably used excessive force on the field now that I think about it), and found it to be a very fun weapon to use against almost any other single weapon out there. But there is the truth of the matter as well; it was just a fake weapon....that dented steel, broke shields & threw a hell of a curve at all there not used to fighting against the non-european weapon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mantid1

I use the weapons in my training for strentgh and coordination training. Then the two person weapons sets can much more lethal while practicing than open hand sets.

I take your approch also. This is traditional and this is what I find works


In the end you are 100% right. A water bucket is great for battle if it works. Use what you have the way it works for you

Sorry for getting side tracked myself, but it is still early.

Thanks again

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Exactly. Thanks for the fun topic.
~BTL

I have some other MA friends who belong to the S.C.A

Have you ever been to the pensik wars(sp) Bei?

I think it is a great place to try your the Chinese weapons. I am not sure the rules after the weapons are dropped but it would also be a great place to find out if the mantis style works also. I think this type of battle closely simulates the type of battles being fought when our particular mantis styles were being developed.

I would bet that weapons were used in most cases and the pretty praying mantis hands were used just for fun or a last resort.

That is one reason I like the Mantis styles that use alot of weapons. I feel it shows that the founder of the system had alot of experience in real combat and not just fist fighting with his nieghbor.

But I have also found that the systems that do incorporate alot of weapons may have a somewhat more simplistic approach the the empty hand fighting (not all). The founder of these systems may not have thought that slapping around with two person drills did them much good on a hill side in the rain as a couple of guys are attacking him with clubs.

This may be another thread. Has anyone ever put any thought to how and why the different styles of mantis were developed? some obviously are more influenced by weapons than others. Maybe the guys in the military or professional escorts relied more on the weapons and this is why their systems are more weapons oriented. Maybe the city guy devloped what worked well in the dim sum restaurant.

??

I am sure everyone thinks their style is the best:)

I have to agree with Darkfist, my emphasis is with the hand to hand stuff. Guess it is just that time in my career. My students havent had an interest in weapons until just recently. They are preparing for a tournament in Asheville NC, Feb.06. I would like to bring more than just hand forms and two person sets. We are excited about the lion dance comp as well.

BTL, man I have a whole new respect for you now bro. SCA guys are wicked. One of my old kf brothers is a big shot with the Florida group. He use to travel alot doing these wars or whatever. These cats are brutal fighters with weapons and very proud of this fact. My friend learned di so gee (large sweeper) re-did it to fit there competition and was un-beatable with it. You might know him Bei, name is Bruce Cohen. Cant remember his rank, he did have alot of babes around him all the time. Dude couldnt do kf forms well but could fight with weapons like no tomorrow!

Excuse my messy post, got waaaayyyy to much to do, like work.

{mantid1- I have some other MA friends who belong to the S.C.A

Have you ever been to the pensik wars(sp) Bei?}

Nah, Pensic is too far & way too public for me.
Oh, BTW, there is a problem with the S.C.A official events; no punching or kicking.
While this for sure helps out safety-wise, its sure tempting to throw them in every once in a while! (Along with shield-punching, body ramming,..etc.)

I would use my hands as often as I could in "real" combat....alot you can do with those.


{yu shan- Cant remember his rank, he did have alot of babes around him all the time. Dude couldnt do kf forms well but could fight with weapons like no tomorrow!
}
Well, while I do not know him, the Florida "kingdom" were the ones we were fighting. No doubt in my mind that the Southern groups hit the hardest & use the least amount of armour. Give a new perspective to getting "spanked" catching rattan on the skin doing about mach 10! LOL!
Last time I was there (or even played) was many, many moons ago. Life got in the way.

Sorry about the side-slip; Back to Mantis long weapons,.....it's all good.

Best wishes
~BTL

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Originally Posted by yu shan

Cant remember his rank, he did have alot of babes around him all the time. Dude couldnt do kf forms well but could fight with weapons like no tomorrow!

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Wait a sec... you mean kung fu can be used to get hot chicks?? :)

N.

Everybody but me -N-, chicks run away in fear... it must be the wedding band hooked thru my nose.

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Originally Posted by -N-

Wait a sec... you mean kung fu can be used to get hot chicks?? :)

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I've gotten lots of hot chicks through kung-fu. That and a law degree.




But, to be a bit more OT, Where you are holding a long-weapon depends on the applicaiton. Let's say a Kwan dao. . . . It is an "outside" weapon in that it's primary strength is its reach. Thus, to beat one with a Kwandao you must be able to get inside to negate the reach advantage. This is a common strategy. By adjusting the grip to where your dominate hand is closer to the head of the Kwan dao you have greater control and application for more inside techniques. Its not ideal, but it allows one an application for someone to use when one is able to penetrate the reach advantage. (Same with a chain-whip and the application for shortening the diameter of the spin with the elbow or neck--increase speed and shorter effective range). Our Kwan-dao form uses all ranges of techniques where you are using the entire length of the shaft to where you are making a tighter cut close to the body withthe hand right under the guard of the weapon head. Just my two-cents.

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Originally Posted by -N-

Wait a sec... you mean kung fu can be used to get hot chicks?? :)

N.

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Not so much,...But being a good heavy weapons fighter in the S.C.A can :D

((enters the music)....Don't ask me how I know,..... :eek: )

LOL!

Exactly what I was talking about JP. Good explaination.

~BTL