"Fantasy-base" martial arts
Terence wrote on another belabored thread:
[B]I've been "in" WCK for almost 25 years now, and I've seen many of the "masters" and "grandmasters", and I've seen lots of WCK people, and I've seen many WCK videos, read many WCK books, attended many WCK seminars, etc. And for the overwhelming part, they all teach fantasy-based martial art.
What do I mean by fantasy-based martial art. Well, they don't *start* with something they can really do (and really do use) in fighting and then teach that to others (which would be reality-based martial art) -- like they do in the functional martial arts like BJJ for example. They teach things that they don't really do, and have never done in fighting but teach instead from a theoretical perspective (from a concept or idea of what they believe they can do) and then use unrealistic exercises to practice and reinforce these things (so they begin with a fantasy, and that's the base of what they do). And then if they do "spar", you don't see the very things they practice to do come out at all or if they do, very infrequently or not as they train to do them. [B]
I thought this might make an interesting discussion. While I think that Terrence's central point has some validity, I also think he is using a straw-man argument. It seems like BJJ is the example most often held up of what a "functional" martial art should be like. But even BJJ has found out in recent years that it has had to do some changing and evolving. Terrence says that "fantasy-based" martial arts are those that "teach things that they don't really do, and have never done in fighting." The problem is....who really "fights" anymore? BJJ has discovered that a vast amount of the technique they were teaching for BJJ tournaments simply does not work in an MMA setting, which is closer to "real" fighting. A high percentage of the really slick moves that you see in BJJ tournaments where the opponent is competing under the same mindset simply don't show up often at all in MMA. So is the rolling that the BJJ guys do really all that different from doing Chi Sao? Is BJJ really the "reality" martial art icon that Terrence would have us believe?
Don't get me wrong. I give BJJ kudos for being progressive and willing to adapt and change as needed. This is something that WCK needs to do as well. But BJJ is just as guilty as WCK of developing and teaching technique that is not based on "real" fighting. Rolling with a partner in the gym or in a tournament is not "real" fighting, just like Chi Sao and sparring are not "real" fighting. BJJ is a good example of what a progressive and modern martial art should look like. But let's not give them TOO much credit! ;) Labeling one method as "reality" and the other as "fantasy" is not very useful. Lets just get to training and do our best to progress and evolve.
Keith
Your fantasy? or WC fantasy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
t_niehoff
Much of what is trained, taught, etc, in WCK is fantasy -- it is not the stuff people really do or can really do when they fight, it is stuff they fantasize they can do when they fight.
Here is a fantasy sequence from a WCK website:
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/movie_v....flv&filesize=
This is fantasy -- no one will ever be able to really do any of that they way it is done in the clip. It's not like they took what really happens in fighting and have demo'ed it. Now, someone can argue that this is just to show the "principles" of WCK. But that begs the question: why demo the "principles" in a way you could never use them?!
The TWC video clip you cite as evidence of fantasy based training does not purport to be video of a real combat situation. But since we are on the subject of fantasy. Here is another video clip of a fantasy sequence... no punches to the head permitted, no fishooks, etc. Although the differences in videos is obvious, the point is... you are quick to see the fantasy in TMA - but completely blind to the fantasy of those that you tout as realistic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVds78FSl4E
You need to get off your high-horse. Why don't you MMA types go to the MMA forum and talk about how great your martial arts is? Oh - probably because those guys would see right through your BS.