Correct Order Of Forms

I was having this discussion the other day with one of the other students at my school. The way we're taught at our school (and most schools I think) is Sil Lim Tao, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee, Mook Jong, and finally weapons. However I began training on the Mook Jong when I was at Chum Kiu level doing the drills I knew at that time. I was discouraged form doing so by my sihings but couldn't understand why. The Mook Jong helps your footwork and positioning WAY more than just doing it in the air or waiting until class time for a partner. It also helps practice movements from the forms and improves those also, so why shouldn't you use it at earlier stages? Looking back now, I should have started using it at Sil Lim Tao level. My footwork would have improved much faster if I did. I also disagree with the order of the forms. To my way of thinking. the Mook Jong should be taught before Biu Jee. Biu Jee is also known as First Aid Hands or emergency techniques. Sil Lim Tao, Chum Kiu, and the Mook Jong really train the core of the Wing Chun system. Anyone have any input on this?

I've seen alot of WCK schools teach in that order, or similar (sometimes knives and pole later), "Saving" the MYJ for after Biu Jee.
I've also seen people teach parts of the MYJ earlier on, or drills on it.
I often teach drills to compliment specific techniques as a learning tool, and it allows the student to get the coordination better.
ex: kwun-sao, which for many is very difficult to grasp, but having something you can work on, hands on works really well.
Gaun-sao, and bong, especially dai-bong sao is real easy to grasp, once you move and hit the jong.
plus, from a school owner's standpoint, face it-people think the jong is mysterious, and cool. They've seen it in movies, and when they walk into a kwoon they see the jong and think,"Wow-there it is!" Letting them work on it is motivational.
(C'mon, we've all been there!)

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Originally Posted by hulkout

I was having this discussion the other day with one of the other students at my school. The way we're taught at our school (and most schools I think) is Sil Lim Tao, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee, Mook Jong, and finally weapons. However I began training on the Mook Jong when I was at Chum Kiu level doing the drills I knew at that time. I was discouraged form doing so by my sihings but couldn't understand why. The Mook Jong helps your footwork and positioning WAY more than just doing it in the air or waiting until class time for a partner. It also helps practice movements from the forms and improves those also, so why shouldn't you use it at earlier stages? Looking back now, I should have started using it at Sil Lim Tao level. My footwork would have improved much faster if I did. I also disagree with the order of the forms. To my way of thinking. the Mook Jong should be taught before Biu Jee. Biu Jee is also known as First Aid Hands or emergency techniques. Sil Lim Tao, Chum Kiu, and the Mook Jong really train the core of the Wing Chun system. Anyone have any input on this?

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Drills on the mook jong can be shown and practiced early on and dont have to wait for learning the biu jee to work on the mok jong form. Curious. Whose school or what school are you in?

joy chaudhuri

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Originally Posted by Vajramusti

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Drills on the mook jong can be shown and practiced early on and dont have to wait for learning the biu jee to work on the mok jong form. Curious. Whose school or what school are you in?

joy chaudhuri

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I train with Sunny Tang who is from the Moy Yat lineage. I guess that's the way in which he was taught, so he teaches us the same way. However he also encourages us to find our own way. One of the things he tells us is that he has never taught anyone Wing Chun. All he's done is to show people how to use tools. It's up to the person to teach themselves Wing Chun with those tools. He actually never discouraged me from using the Mook Jong. It was my Sihings who did. To this day, I still don't understand what their point was. One of them told me that it could create bad habits, which makes no sense at all. With a Mook Jong, you have something to face and position yourself against. Doing things in the air can create bad habits. Look at all the air punching and kicking people do. Your fist or foot could be in the wrong position and you wouldn't know it until you hit something solid. Then you'll get a very painful lesson. You need resistance of some kind in order to train proper positioning and power. I think from day one, you should practice on wallbags, heavy bags, and the Mook Jong.

In Moy Yat lineage under Lee Moy Shan, we were often taught the Jong from behind a curtain or in a separate room. Its no big deal, you can learn drills from it if you're a beginner, then eventually graduate to actual sections.

At my instructor's school the forms are taught in the usual order and you are expected to reach certain grades before you start practicsing CK and BJ, but the dummy and weapons are introduced in regular seminars outside of normal class times.

So you can start on the dummy while you're still working on SLT. Same with weapons.

I agree with your philosophy, hulkout. I think the "don't start learning this too early because you'll develop bad habits" stuff is rubbish. If you're picking up stuff faster than your sihings, that's their problem, not yours. I have always seen BJ as the "icing on the cake", whereas SLT CK and the jong are the bread and butter of WC.

I do think it's a mistake to chase flashy stuff at the expense of mastering the basics, but IMO that's not what has been discussed here.

Buddy what your hearing makes no logical sence IMO.

If you have learnt SLT and CK you already have the necessary tools to learn at least the first 20 actions on the Jong and thats being conservative for arguments sake :o.

A large part of the Jong Form you should already be doing form the forms into - Chi Sau, Poon Sau, Luk Sau Drills anyway.

I was taught the Jong along side Form and Drill training.

If thats your teachers approach you have to respect that while at training, outside however, not so much :p...... but its in no way detrimental IME.

When I was originally taught Wing Chun, the curriculum was SLT, CK, 1st half MYG, BJ, 2nd half of MYG, pole, then knives. The logic was that the 2nd half of the MYG form was more advanced and contained elements from the BJ form. Therefore the BJ form was learned before it. But the 1st half of the MYG contained essential elements of footwork and application, and therefore came before the BJ form. I think a student should be working drills on the Jong very early on. After all, Pin Sun Wing Chun is taught as san sik, and each san sik is applied on the Jong as well as solo and with a partner. So in Pin Sun, you start working the Jong right from the start. I think in Ip Man WCK the emphasis on the Jong may have shifted in more recent generations because a Jong was not always available for training and then class sizes increased to the point that it was impractical to have every student work the Jong regularly from the beginning.