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Just saw this link on another forum:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hung_Su...g_Chun_Kung_Fu
Rick Spain is attributed as the founder of this style, taught by William Cheung.
Very interesting as some of the history written there seems to parallel Hung Fa Yi oral history, especially with the Hung Gun Biu aspects.
I know anerlich (Andrew) has to be well acquainted with this, and I know Phil Redmond also has to have a perspective on this.
Anything you care to share gentlemen?
Hung Suen (Red Junk)
Hei Ban (Opera Company)
Wing Chun
I have come across lines of Wing Chun that derive from the Red Junks which retain a different flavour from Hong Kong based lines of Wing Chun. I spent over a decade under a Hung Suen Hei Ban Wing Chun instructor.
(Just to be clear,what I was taught has nothing to do with HFY or TWC). During the time spent with my sifu, he never related any oral history regarding his line other than its inception and development on the red junks (he was an actor with the Guangzhou Opera).
Suki
What are the differentiating ideas/actions to the others, twc, etc... ?
Iyiyi.
I rely on Wikipedia for a lot of stuff, but never MA history.
There is no way, as the article states, that Hung Suen Wing Chun was founded in the 1980s. Rick Spain was a student of William Cheung up until 1995, parting company due to William Cheung's actions rather than Rick's, and we practised TWC until then and for some time later, and really, still do. It is absurd to say this system appeared in the 1980's, at earliest it would have been late 1990's.
The Hung Suen Wing Chun thing came up around the time Complete Wing Chun was published, and the world got to see Garrett Gee and HFY for the first time. Rick's most senior student at the time, Alf del-Brocco, collaborated with Benny Meng on a historical article at the time, FWIW.
There was much speculation at the time that TWC and HFY shared common roots and were closely related, as there were a number of superficial similarities. It was speculated that Willaim Cheung had been sent to the mainland by his family due to some involvement with criminals, learned HFY there, and came back with the Leung Bik story (which is open to challenge, to put it mildly) to cover that up.
A good time for product differentiation from a marketing POV, and time for Rick to assert his independence. Hung Suen basically means Red Boat, which is hardly an outrageous thing to call a YM derivative of WC.
What we do is basically TWC. There are a few changes Rick has made, most notably with which stances predominate, but he did not claim credit for inventing any of this, indeed he gives credit to William Cheung. We also train a variety of systems other than WC, including Machado BJJ under John Will, wrestling under a Persian coach, and Hock Hochheim style weapons.
Rick is the founder of the Hung Suen Wing Chun organisation, The Wing Chun Kung Fu Organisation. In that sense he founded HSWC, the brand and lineage. While he has done a lot of experimenting with TWC and incorporated modern sport science into the training methods, I don't think he would ever claim to have invented a new system of Wing Chun.
The HFY/TWC "link" turned out to be nothing IMO. I had the privilege of meeting Alex Oropeza (duende from the forum) in Sydney a while back and we were able to convince each other quite easily that our two systems are both rich but quite different.
I don't know who wrote that article. I've seen this history before, but I think it's just combined from a number of sources and is not based on any independent research let alone oral history handed down the generations.
As one of the comments on the talk page says, it sounds more like an ad than an encyclopaedia article. I'm sure Rick himself had nothing to do with it and it was set up by a well meaning student without his knowledge (way back in 2007). Take this article seriously at your peril.
Let the flamage begin ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wu Wei Wu
Would you mind sharing any reasoning or purpose behind Rick actually naming his founded system 'Hung Suen'? It seems a shame that the actual people who were on the Hung Suen and have had careers as actors/martial artists share the name with those who have had nothing whatsoever to do with anything close to Operatic Wing Chun. Especially when, as far as I'm aware, some Sifus that were connected seem to have had very difficult lives deciding not to promote themselves and teaching for the love of their arts to a very select few. It just doesn't make sense to me, other than yet another attempt at marketing a new 'brand' of Wing Chun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anerlich
So again, what was Rick Spains, or even Sifu Cheungs connection to the Hei Ban Opera? And what part of your wider MMA curriculum promotes this connection? No offense intended here, believe me, but there seems to be no connection at all other than the standard 'link' to the junks through proxy of being from Ip Man. And Ip Man, as far as I am aware, never promoted the Operatic troupes at all.
LOL. I don't know what the reasoning and purpose were.Quote:
Would you mind sharing any reasoning or purpose behind Rick actually naming his founded system 'Hung Suen'? It seems a shame that the actual people who were on the Hung Suen and have had careers as actors/martial artists share the name with those who have had nothing whatsoever to do with anything close to Operatic Wing Chun. Especially when, as far as I'm aware, some Sifus that were connected seem to have had very difficult lives deciding not to promote themselves and teaching for the love of their arts to a very select few. It just doesn't make sense to me, other than yet another attempt at marketing a new 'brand' of Wing Chun.
So again, what was Rick Spains, or even Sifu Cheungs connection to the Hei Ban Opera? And what part of your wider MMA curriculum promotes this connection? No offense intended here, believe me, but there seems to be no connection at all other than the standard 'link' to the junks through proxy of being from Ip Man. And Ip Man, as far as I am aware, never promoted the Operatic troupes at all.
Unlike some (hint), I don't feel a need to second guess or justify what was probably a spur of the moment decision on a name that kinda sounded catchy. Even though, unlike some (hint) it could be remotely considered as being some of my business.
Their problem.Quote:
Especially when, as far as I'm aware, some Sifus that were connected seem to have had very difficult lives deciding not to promote themselves and teaching for the love of their arts to a very select few.
I think that's basically what I said.Quote:
It just doesn't make sense to me, other than yet another attempt at marketing a new 'brand' of Wing Chun.
Thx for the insight Andrew (anerlich).
And thanks Suki for sharing the link to your late Sifus history.