Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterKiller
:p :p :p :p :p :p
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterKiller
:p :p :p :p :p :p
That's pretty much how all martial arts styles evolved.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaiChiBob
Both the arts I practice a compendiums several if not many other styles.
Choy Lay Fut=Northern Shaolin, Lay Ga and Hung Ga.
Hun Yuan Taiji=Chen Taiji, Xing Yi, Tong Bei + some Ba Gua and other stuff.
The best martial artists are the ones that don't limit themselves. Which is why I think that this MMA business is so silly.....as if there's one formula (ie Judo, BJJ and Muy Thai.) :rolleyes:
Those guys are going to be in big trouble when the kung fu hands, chin na and throwing gets into the mix. I just heard from one of my kung fu brothers in Florida that one of his fighters entered a MMA competition and sent the other guy to the hospital.
Chinese arts don't have groundfighting so you need to pick that up elsewhere but the other stuff is already there, waiting to be exploited by MMA participants....if they aren't to blind to see it.
FP
Nice post TCB but if you had any real fights you wouldn't have been so surprised by the MMA/UFC.
See, this is what I don't understand. I guess there are a lot of peeps that trained in MA without having any real fights.
Most of my fighting was done before I ever took a formal class. I also trained at schools where you had to apply what you learned. Yes, I've been to the forms only type of school but that was well after the real fights/live training and I was mostly interested in MA as a hobby.
I just find it hard to believe that there are so many clueless MA peeps out there. I'm sure the 'forms only' schools are a small number.
So how about a head count on who got into fights before they trained formally?
How many tried out what you were learning for real before you 'grew up'?
*raises hand*Quote:
Originally Posted by Ou Ji
Greetings..
I'm going to dismiss that remark, for now.. the stunned silence was due to seeing reality encroaching into the "gentlemanly" sport of sanctioned pugilism.. but, if you think, for a second, that i lack extensive and hard street time, you are incorrect.. I (we) simply didn't expect it to become a competition format.. i also advise care in off-hand remarks regarding the experience or capabilities of people you don't know.. i know folks that would slap you to ground for a remark like that, seriously..Quote:
Nice post TCB but if you had any real fights you wouldn't have been so surprised by the MMA/UFC.
Be well..
Didn't mean it as an insult. Wasn't exactly directed to you personally but since I was responding to your post it went in your direction. It spurred a thought so I threw it out there. Maybe you needed to clarify like you did in the response.
The point being I know you are familiar with real fighting which is why I don't understand the shock. Don't take it personal, I'm questioning the general CMA public.
Who says I don't know them? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by TaiChiBob
I know what root is, and its largely mystical mumbo jumbo. Where are all these people with "root" who can stop a takedown? Why aren't they competing? Do you know how much money a given instructor could make by showing people how to stop a shoot or a throw? Do you know what that would do for TCMA?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fu-Pow
They don't do it because they know it doesn't work outside their kwoon/dojo/school.
Shifting your weight doesn't mean you don't have a low center of gravity either. Judokas are trained to throw resisting opponents. If you're sitting there "rooting" a good Judoka will change up and nail you with another throw or takedown. If you feel your "rooting" is giving way, you'll instinctively resist by shifting your weight in another direction, and a good Judoka will pick up on that as well.Quote:
Shifting your weight doesn't mean you don't have a high center of gravity.
The bottom line is that I've never seen any Kung Fu man, Karateka, etc. be able to withstand a takedown from a wrestler, Judoka, Bjj, etc. by "rooting" themselves. If you have some proof, I'd love to see it. Seeing is believing afterall.
So a Taiji user isn't going to resist a throw?Quote:
Which is anti-thetical to Taiji.
I'll simplify for you;Quote:
:confused:
A typical Judo class consists of 2 or more people grabbing, gripping, and throwing each other at full speed, and full resistance. Thus when its time for a Judoka to actually use what they've learned, its ingrained in their minds because they've spent countless hours actually doing the technique in the gym against a resisting opponent whom is often bigger than they are.
Judo sparring looks more like a fight than sparring in a TCMA class. Just like real figthing looks more like a UFC match than a Jackie Chan movie. If you think you're going to be dancing around your opponents with your Kung Fu, you're living in a dream world.
Then why aren't Taiji people destroying opponents in the UFC or Pride? If they couldn't be taken to the ground in a controlled competition, they'd have a HUGE advantage in such events. C'mon man, you seriously can't believe the stuff you're typing here.Quote:
It would never go there.
Uh huh right.....only Judo works.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigPandaBear
You don't know what root means.Quote:
Shifting your weight doesn't mean you don't have a low center of gravity either. Judokas are trained to throw resisting opponents. If you're sitting there "rooting" a good Judoka will change up and nail you with another throw or takedown. If you feel your "rooting" is giving way, you'll instinctively resist by shifting your weight in another direction, and a good Judoka will pick up on that as well.
The bottom line is that I've never seen any Kung Fu man, Karateka, etc. be able to withstand a takedown from a wrestler, Judoka, Bjj, etc. by "rooting" themselves. If you have some proof, I'd love to see it. Seeing is believing afterall.
Not in the sense that you are thinking of.Quote:
So a Taiji user isn't going to resist a throw?
Thanks I don't need any simplification.Quote:
I'll simplify for you;
And the difference between that and freestyle push hands is?Quote:
A typical Judo class consists of 2 or more people grabbing, gripping, and throwing each other at full speed, and full resistance. Thus when its time for a Judoka to actually use what they've learned, its ingrained in their minds because they've spent countless hours actually doing the technique in the gym against a resisting opponent whom is often bigger than they are.
I'm just going to ignore that because of its ridiculosity.Quote:
Judo sparring looks more like a fight than sparring in a TCMA class. Just like real figthing looks more like a UFC match than a Jackie Chan movie. If you think you're going to be dancing around your opponents with your Kung Fu, you're living in a dream world.
The short answer....it just hasn't happened....YET.Quote:
Then why aren't Taiji people destroying opponents in the UFC or Pride? If they couldn't be taken to the ground in a controlled competition, they'd have a HUGE advantage in such events. C'mon man, you seriously can't believe the stuff you're typing here.
The long answer....because learning takes patience. And the patience that you learn from doing something like Taiji makes you less likely to want to compete for something as trivial as a MMA/UFC type event. Where as the MMA people are people that want it all now and they train for simplicity over elegance.
A side note:
When people want to put down Chinese martial arts they point to usually point to the most ridiculous claims by the most ridiculous exponents of a particular style. Its a strawman that's easy to knock down instead of looking at the huge body of knowledge that is ripe for the picking. But you gotta sift through that knowledge yourself and that takes work. Its not going to come to you pre-packaged.
Most of real Chinese martial arts is extremely pragmatic and well thought out. People who want to put it down point to the theatrical or semi-mystical. Oh well...your loss. Eventually you are going to be eating punches and throws from TCMA practitioners....not if...but when.
im really good at shooting your basic compound bow.
i can hit the target, i could compete. do i? no. does that mean my arrow is any less straight or true to its mark? no.
look beyond your ego there is much to experience in all sides and to resist any side is to limit your own knowledge.
we are the only ones that suffer from our self imposed ignorance.
there are many good points in this discussion, as well as there are many points that reak of personal opinion and biased outlooks.
there are four in the immediate area, and I know them all. two of them also teach cma - one wushu and the other longfist. One teaches wing chun and muay thai.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fu-Pow
No, they don't. they require you to have a higher center than me - not necessarily "high", just higher than mine, and broken balance. listening energy, then swallowing. those set up the kazushi (off balancing) and tskuri (fit in) which lead to kake - the execution. momentum can help, because it causes you to offbalance yourself, but it's not required.Quote:
Did I say solely? The examples you presented require a high center of gravity and forward momentum.
says who? you are only referring to a small circle of techniques. none of the takedowns require this, except the single leg, double leg and scoop throw. several of the throws - like harai goshi are independent of that as well. If what you said was true, judo would utterly suck for tall people. That's like saying the whole concept of CLF is wide, telegraphic haymaker style strikes.Quote:
The whole concept of Judo throws is based on the idea that you can get under your opponents center of gravity and add to their forward, backward, sideways...whatever.....momentum. You can't throw dead weight that easily.
his center is whereever it happens to be once I break his balance. Anyone can be thrown.Quote:
Taiiji players have a very dubious "center" to begin with so you are going to have a hard time getting under it....if you can find it at all. Where is the center of a spiral?
Discounting the wushu and longfist teacher have you tried hands with the other two. If so, what is their lineage?Quote:
Originally Posted by SevenStar
But if I have no momentum then it requires that you use strength.Quote:
No, they don't. they require you to have a higher center than me - not necessarily "high", just higher than mine, and broken balance. listening energy, then swallowing. those set up the kazushi (off balancing) and tskuri (fit in) which lead to kake - the execution. momentum can help, because it causes you to offbalance yourself, but it's not required.
I'm referring to the techniques that you presented.Quote:
says who? you are only referring to a small circle of techniques. none of the takedowns require this, except the single leg, double leg and scoop throw. several of the throws - like harai goshi are independent of that as well. If what you said was true, judo would utterly suck for tall people.
And yet people want to tell me about my art all the time and how ineffective it is, how its dancing and how much better Muy Thai, Judo and BJJ are. :rolleyes:Quote:
That's like saying the whole concept of CLF is wide, telegraphic haymaker style strikes.
You will not "break" a good Taiji players balance. It would be like a mouse trying "off-balance" a water balloon.Quote:
his center is whereever it happens to be once I break his balance. Anyone can be thrown.
In a classical sense, it goes against what judo teaches as well. But guess what? reality dictates that this is not always the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fu-Pow
you really don't know that, do you?Quote:
It would never go there.
a student of one of them. The teacher trained under francis fong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fu-Pow
it only requires a nudge to break someone's balance. However, you will see a lot of strength used in judo, as well as resistance. It's called "the gentle art" but that's something of a misnomer.Quote:
But if I have no momentum then it requires that you use strength.
you must only be looking at two of them. o uchi gari requires no forward momentum at all from the opponent.Quote:
I'm referring to the techniques that you presented.
right - and you'll never take down a player with good root either...Quote:
You will not "break" a good Taiji players balance. It would be like a mouse trying "off-balance" a water balloon.
That's a combo, sweep/throw. I actually like that one because it reminded me more CMA, giving you more than one thing to deal with at a time.Quote:
Originally Posted by SevenStar
Sevenstar, I don't usually agree with you but I must say that your web fu is high caliber.
Thanks for playing its been fun but I have some things I need to focus on now that are higher priority. We just started a totally ineffectual martial dancing class and I need to deal with some administrative details surrounding it.
Peace
FP
I never said that, nor do I believe that. However, I've been around long enough to see that you can't stop a skilled takedown by "rooting" yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fu-Pow
You mean the ability to use "chi" to keep yourself planted on the ground and immovable? There's only so much "root" can mean when you're talking about stances.Quote:
You don't know what root means.
Of course not. :rolleyes:Quote:
Not in the sense that you are thinking of.
I've never seen an assailant "push hands" with someone. I've seen plenty try clinching, tackling, and attempting to throw someone. Most rape victims end up on their backs with a bigger, stronger assailant on top of them. You think "Push hands" is going to save them from that? Judo Newaza and/or Bjj groundfighting certainly can.Quote:
And the difference between that and freestyle push hands is?
Um, what's ridiculous about it? I've personally seen several fights end up looking just like a UFC match; Two overgrown gorillas wrestling around on the ground trying to gain the upper hand, OR two overgrown gorillas clinching each other and throwing wild blows, OR a skinny kid getting tackled by an overgrown gorilla, OR the good old fashion ground and pound.Quote:
I'm just going to ignore that because of its ridiculosity.
I've NEVER seen anything look remotely like a Chinese form in a real situation. NEVER. The only noticeable MA stance I ever saw was a very narrow back stance.
Contemporary Taiji will be 200 years old in 10 years. Its older than the majority of MAs taught in a MMA curriculum.Quote:
The short answer....it just hasn't happened....YET.
In other words, if it hasn't happened yet, it isn't going to happen.
Quote:
The long answer....because learning takes patience. And the patience that you learn from doing something like Taiji makes you less likely to want to compete for something as trivial as a MMA/UFC type event. Where as the MMA people are people that want it all now and they train for simplicity over elegance.
Fighting isn't elegant. The prettiest you're going to get is Mohammud Ali, and even some of his fights will make you wince.
MMA people like Bruce Lee, The Gracies, etc. want what WORKS. Not some mystical mumbo jumbo that is going to get you pounded in the dirt. Instead of spending 10-15 years attempting to "root" yourself, why don't you spend 10-15 months actually learning how to avoid getting stomped on the ground?
In fact why spend 10-15 years in a TCMA when I'll end up fighting like a kickboxer? Why not just spend 1-2 years actually studying kickboxing?
I live in a very logical world my friend. I believe what I see. I don't believe in myths and stories that have no empirical evidence to back them up. If I see one group of martial artists saying "Meet us anytime, anyplace and we'll prove our art to you", I tend to put more stock in their claims. If I have another group of artists who say "Our art can stop anything, but its too deadly to prove except behind closed doors", I'm less inclined to believe them. Especially when money is involved.
Herein lies your problem; Criticizing TCMA is not HATING TCMA. If you say that Judo is ineffective against a TCMA practioner, someone is going to call you on it. Judo has proven itself behind closed doors, on the streets, AND in the ring.Quote:
A side note:
When people want to put down Chinese martial arts they point to usually point to the most ridiculous claims by the most ridiculous exponents of a particular style. Its a strawman that's easy to knock down instead of looking at the huge body of knowledge that is ripe for the picking. But you gotta sift through that knowledge yourself and that takes work. Its not going to come to you pre-packaged.
Most of real Chinese martial arts is extremely pragmatic and well thought out. People who want to put it down point to the theatrical or semi-mystical. Oh well...your loss. Eventually you are going to be eating punches and throws from TCMA practitioners....not if...but when.
I don't hate the TCMAs, I hate the elite attitude that individuals like you express. If TCMAs are so superior, then simply prove it. I'd LOVE to see a pure TCMA practioner (much less a Taiji practioner) win a MMA competition. So would the entire MA community. It would cause a revolution in competitive fighting and self defense that would benefit EVERYBODY.
However we both know its never going to happen. When Gracie JJ challenged Judo, several Judokas stepped to the plate and put it all on the line. Now people crosstrain between both styles, and both are better for it. When Boxing challenged Judo, Gene Lebelle stepped up to the plate with a bum shoulder and put it all on the line.
Everyone knows why TCMA purists don't put it all on the line. Everyone except TCMA purists that is. :p