Whatchout JP, you are going to make some sense if you aren't careful.. . .
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Whatchout JP, you are going to make some sense if you aren't careful.. . .
If it was marketed more like that (a hybrid system) I'd be more okay with it. But do you have forms that actually combine elements from your multiple systems as Mantis combines the monkey footwork into its forms?
If they marketed it more as a unique system combining elements of various styles I'd be more okay with it. Rather, they say that Sin Te is the nth generation Shaolin Grandmaster with the unprecedented honor of being MASTER of all 18 of the Shaolin styles, etc. etc. Each of these styles he claims mastery of is designed to be a complete system unto itself with enough material to last a lifetime. They try to make it sound like he's a well-accepted expert on a variety of CMAs, when the only thing he's an expert on is SD.
Anyway, that is a matter of marketing and if you all still honestly feel it increases your fighting ability then do whatever makes you happy. Just realize that SD is a long way off from the way traditional CMA does things.
Tradition comes from the latin word traditio.."to hand down" or "to hand over"...the way your systems traditions were handed down in a different way than ours was .....as for the difference between style or system... style is some thing that comes from within it.... is part of your ideaology and creative self ...it is the way that someone interprets,performs, or lives ...it is a particular psychological, philosophical and /or physiological practice or belief system.... Praying mantis is not a style.... how you perform, interpret ,or live the praying mantis system is your style .....praying mantis is one of the sub-systems of Shaolin Do..Shaolin is belief system based philosophical Taoism, Buddhism, and Confucianism with connections to Hinduism,Shamanism and Islamism...
I have read these posts for years. I have seen SD videos. Some people say it is the real thing. Some people say it is not.
I have been studying and training in CMA for more than 15 years. I have spoken to many sifu of many styles. It seems from my experience that SD is incorrect.
Some of my reasons:
1. The Name is strange. It seems to be a mixture of languages. If it is traditional Shaolin kung fu, why not just call it Shaolin Kung fu or Shaolin Wushu?
2. The history seems incorrect. The history of SD mentions master that are not in the history of Shaolin that is generally accepted. The master with the hair sickness is an extraordinary man. If he was that good, he would be known and written outside SD.
3. The GI. Chinese clothing and Japanese clothing are different. They are similar but not the same. A shaolin robe is a robe. A Japanese GI is underwear. It is traditionally worn under kimono and hakama. Does a kung fu style have to wear a black uniform with white cuffs? No, but wearing a gi is odd for a traditional Chinese style to do.
4. The forms seem wrong. I have watch SD video clips. It appears that the masters and students doing the forms don't fully understand what they are doing. it looks like book learning. I don't do mantis, but I have seen it enough to know that the SD mantis looks wrong. Some may argue that I don't study mantis so I don't know all of the variations of it. This is not so. I don't play the saxophone but I know that you don't play it with a guitar pick.
I am not saying SD people don't know how to fight. I am not saying that they don't train hard. However, SD seems like a style of kempo and not kung fu
I do Mantis and agree with you. Not only that, but I have pointed out specific problems with what little SD mantis I've seen, but to no avail. To be fair, they have addressed the issues of the name, the uniform, etc. They may be strange, but the question is whether or not they really have an understanding of the systems and forms they practice. I've yet to see any SD videos that gave me that impression.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Horse
I'm not going to continue debating, as I've already done so ad nauseum in another foum and realized I'm not going to convert any of the hardcore SDists, but if anyone has any more SD videos that they think would show SD in a more positive light, please come forward. If possible try to pick a form like Baiyuan Toutao that has a name people recognize, as opposed to just, "here's some guy doing drunken style."
Just curious..... would it not stand to reason that if the art was passed down with Japanese traditions that it would also resemble more of a Japanese Karate feel rather than a Chinese Chuan Fa feel??Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Horse
As for the 2 different languages...the idiograms are the same for Shaoilin Do as they would be for Shaolin Tao...whether it be Chinese or Japanese...it still means The Way of Shaolin or Shaolin Way...So is it really a different language??No... it is a different dialect....
As for the lineage ....ours is third generation, once removed, from the temple proper ( seeing as Ie Chang Ming was in the temple with Su Kong Tai Djin)...if you look at most schools traditions and systems you will see that their systems are far more removed from the temple teachings proper..... so who has a more reliable source of information as to what was going on in the temples and how the arts were taught at that time?? Many individual masters, to claim legitimacy, have kept written track of their lineage ,history, and traditions ........ ours was passed down by oral tradition.. any record of Su Kong or Ie chang Ming's existence was lost in the last temple burning at Fukien....
Seeing as some people do not understand this I will explain...kung fu means time and effort , hard work, or acquired skill..with that being said... anyone who has become proficient at anything has acquired skill through hard work, time, and effort .and could be called or said to know kung fu...
Shaolin Do could be called Shaolin kempo( boxing), Kenpo( boxing), karate( china hand) , wushu( warrior art) ,or chuan fa(boxing).....but actually to call it kung fu is incorrect ......and that is why it is called Shaolin Do Martial Arts...very few in SD call it Kung FU.....if they do.... that is their choice and they have their reasons...it is still Chinese martial arts whether it came through Japan, Korea ,or Indonesia ......it still has Chinese origins..
As for the Gi ...look at the difference between a monks attire and the Japanese GI.....they are the color,the belt, arm/ leg ties, and shoes ( all cosmetic)...if you say that it is underwear for the Japanese.... this is true..... but not underwear in the sense of how we understand it...it was "worn under", (underwear), the kimono ...
The forms seem wrong ?? Compared to what?? How can you compare apples to oranges?? Yeah they are both fruit and have nutritional value...but an apple you can eat right away.... which is how Shaolin Do teaches( for emidiate usage and comprehension) where as with other systems you have to wait a while to get to the fruit....you ever try to use a set of techniques from a "Chinese Kung Fu" form ( kuen) taught by a "traditional" kungfu practitioner?? It takes alot to make those techniques work in application... it is too soft and fluid...fluidity is something you gain over time with effort, hard work, and aquired skill( Kung Fu) ....not right away...otherwise it is ineffective and just a dance......thanx..... and have a nice day!!
You must be kidding. However, I am not going to argue with you.
Oh yeah. Karate means empty hand 空手. It is the kara in Karaoke 空オケ. Some of your other translations are a bit funky, too.
Later!
You can not argue with common sense or facts....The original idiograms that were used for karate meant China Hand ..Gechin Funakoshi changed it to represent empty hand... other translation are funky??..you have got to be kiding me...which ones??.. This all you could come up with?? Yeah later!!much later!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Horse
Dude! This is an on-line forum. We are nameless and faceless to each other. I don't want to argue with someone about something that is not the most important thing in studies. If we were in a cafe, I would be happy to talk about it more.
Common sense
What seems to be common is that many people question SD's claims. I haven't really seen any other style have this problem. If you don't think so, do a search in these forums or other forums.
Facts
The fact is that your history is questionable. It may or may not be true but it is questionable. There have been long threads about it. Another fact is that stylists who do the same say you are doing the techniques wrong (not the form).
Karate was not invented by Gechin Funakoshi. It isn't even Japanese. It is from Okinawa. Peasants were not allowed to use weapons so they mastered unarmed combat (empty hand). Most of the weapons in this style are farming tools.
If you truly what to talk about this PM me your telephone number and i will can talk about this.
I have been coming to this forum for almost 6 years but I don't post so much. I have other things to do.
actually many styles/ systems have this problem ..just not on the same scale..because this is so far removed from everyones conceptions and preconceptions of what is and what is not it screws with their minds...How many chinese systems do you know of that have come to america by way of indonesia?? It is a unique history to say the least....and to be honest it is alittle out there ..but that is what makes it so believable ..because no one could be that creative to make the sh** up... it would take many hours,studying and plotting to beable to do that..and quite frankly considering the varifyable documented proof of his life ...he would not have had the time...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Horse
If it works in application how can it be wrong?? you would have to know the form to know whether it was right of wrong....hell most of the people that practice "kung fu" can not even apply the techniques from the forms... let alone even be able to disect them out of the forms properly.... all that flowery crap will get your ass kicked and lacks power and focus..
.uhh I said that Gechin Funokoshi changed the idiogram..I did not say that he invented karate.....pay attention.. you send your number and I will call you....
according to Wikipedia, Karate was first 唐手. It was the name of China at the time. Funakoshi sensei changed it to 空手. I stand corrected.
OK, all of you 35-40 people that post on the forum are right!! All the other 3000-4000 that take SD who hold Phd's, Masters, Bachelors, and have seen martial arts are wrong. You seem to forget that we of SD can research too. Many of us have. So what do we have here:
1. Different movements,
2. Different "way" of moving,
3. No written History that we know of,whether it is real or made up.
4. The uniform does not fit into our idea of what we expect it should be.
5. The style SD , doesnt look like the Hung Gar,Mantis,LongFist etc. that I do.
6. Su Kong Tai Jin looks "wierd" and we have no history of him and "by God" we should, he looks so different.
7. SD uses belts
8. FILL IN THE BLANK
But fill it in with something tangible no more he said I havent seen etc that means nothing but opinion with out fact Dr Wayne Dyer says that in life it is easy to be offended by othersbut that is all EGO trying to say we are right you are wrong.
KC
TTT: Please comment on my form since its baseless statements like this that led me to put a video of myself on this forum for debate. In your opinion, is my form CMA or JMA or other? It's a traditional SD form that I've known for years. I'm not a great forms person and there's lots wrong with the way that I do the form, but you should be able to judge the structure of the form from my performance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Horse
And please, for reference, post a clip of you doing a simliar form (Chinese pole-arm of some sort) for a frame of reference as to your knowledge and perspective. After all, in my sometimes idealistic mind, I think that what these types of forums should be about: sharing knowedlge and clearing up mis-information. Please do that so we will know that you may actually know what you are talking about. I did.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m203c8l6B7w
That one wasn't too bad. A bit sluggish, but not bad. I've never studied Guan Dao, so I don't know what it's supposed to be like, but assuming he's a relative beginner it looks pretty good. If it's a Longfist-ish form I'd guess that those places where he takes several slow steps should be "xing-bu," a kind of controlled running.Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge Pen
Keep them coming and maybe I'll upgrade my opinion of SD from "total fraud that I wish would disappear" to "an okay activity for Americans with no access to more authentic CMA."
I wonder if Mr. Language expert (Tatooedmonk) can answer my question about the Chinese characters for the names of Ie Man-ching and Su Kong Tai-jin.
Yes, in the West it was labeled as Mantis.Quote:
Originally Posted by onyomi
Don't do this please. Look we probably no each other TTM. There are problems in the art. There is some really good stuff in there but it is the quality of teaching that is circumspect.Quote:
Originally Posted by tattooedmonk
See JP i told you it would turn into this type of thread.