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Jo, I like your suggestion allot.
BTW, I have a real luxury here at the office. One, I have a nice, private office. Two, some of my employees are also martial arts students. So, when I want to try a side mount against an knife attacker, I throw the kid on the floor and see how it works. Right here on the clock. Great job.
Anyway, what's a good meathod for going from the mount to the side mount while making sure to keep that knife hand away from you? Assuming you know he has a knife in that hand.
JWT
If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV
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JWT,
There are plenty of ways to neutralize a limb from side mount, mount, guard, etc. (as I'm sure you know) The question you are posing, can be easily changed to what would you do if somebody pulled a knife while in your guard, side mount, half guard, clinch, etc. It's not really a question of technique, but rather it's a question of awareness. One of the main problems I have with grappling from any position what-so-ever is the close-proximity you are put into with your attacker. If they have a trick up their sleeve (literally ;p), then you will have little time to react. You must be fully aware of your opponent at all times. If you are the only trained grappler in the confrontation, then it will be easy enough to control his limbs and body.
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knife: i think you are being overconfident in thinking that a knife is something that is easy to handle if you are in the mounted position.
you have already 'proved' to me that you don't think about things too objectively, and once again you have reinforced this notion.
Strategy is a very important aspect of fighting, and you are failing to consider 'sacrifices'. and the element of surprise.
i believe the assumption of the post is one of a person being mounted BEFORE pulling a knife.
if one is in the mounted position, and he knows that he has a knife that he wants to pull; his goal would be to get the knife out without you realising his intention.
a good way to do this would be to 'sacrifice'. - e.g. give you a perfect opening for a lock or a choke. - like giving you his left arm, so while both your hands are dealing with his left, it frees his right hand to reach for the knife. - you may even dislocate his elbow, but that would not stop him from causing major bodily injury to you.
with a knife, power is not an issue, as a blade does not require much more than just a touch to do damage.
* lets say you are grappling with someone, and you put a marker in your waistband, or pocket. - then let the guy assume the mount, not telling him about the knife/marker. - then give him something, such as your left arm, and then pull out the marker, and mark away. - see how many tendons and ligaments you can cut... see how many major artieries you can slice. - i can almost guarantee that the advantage will be yours.
** this goes even more so if he gives his neck for a choke, whether it be front or rear mounted.
like jo-j said, getting your kidney stabbed would not be a pleasant experience. - or from a rear mounted choke, it wouldn't take much to stab you in the head/neck.
you can pummel someone in the face with fists and elbows, but that won't necessarily stop them from inflicting a lethal blow.
it may be possible to turn around a knife on the attacker if you are more skilled than him, but, it is not so easy if you don't even know that he has it.
all in all, it is a BAD situation.
if the gracies don't discuss that type of senario, i would think that that is because they realise the low success rate of grappling against a knife.
*better that they don't discuss it, than show something stupid like "high block"
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johnwaynetaylor,
That is a good question.
I would imagine that if you could pin down the arm with the knife with one or both hands against the ground you could then use that pinned down knife as a pivot point. You could put the majority of your bodies pressure on it with locked arms and hop over to the side position. Once you replace a knee on their knife arm or wrist you could let go with your hands and gain side control.
Try that on one of your lackeys at work and let me know how it works!
-jojitsu27
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MaFuYee,
Search their site. I know there is an article on there somewhere about grappling against a knife. I think they did demos and classes for the LA SWAT team. I'd actually prefer to do that than strike with someone with a knife. The trick is knowing that they have a knife. Personally, I don't think it's worth the risk, so I avoid confrontations at all costs.
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I'll try it after lunch, but I don't like the sound of it. It sounds way too much like I'm posting into the knife.
Also, I've found that if I "give" that he gets a knife, and then I get him into a high guard, he tucks his elbow and now has great position to my abdomen when he has a hammer grip on the "blade"-which is a high lighter today. He has no grappling experience, and I have some, but still, he's carving me up quite nicely. If he keeps at it, I'm going to fire him.
JWT
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hmmm....
try not to post on the knife so much, as just maintain control of it while going to side mount.
Maybe you could base the positioning of your side mount in relation to wherever you trap the knife hand down at.
Do it by focusing on landing on the knife hand with your knee to trap it. You might end up in a position different than side control, maybe something closer to his head if you trap his hand high, but it still might work.
Let me know,
jojitsu27
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Jerry Love:
6- "If I have to have someone pull a knife, I'd rather it be while I had them in a mount.".- Yes.
Jojitsu:
While side control is pretty good for controlling an opponent with a knife, I have a higher success rate from the full mount. I find I can control the arms better and can deliver hard blows to the face at the same time while mounted.
MaFuYee:
Hey, if you believe I am not an objective thinker, then just disregard my posts. I do have about 20 years history in "playing" with knives and am just adding what my personal experiences have been. One of my conclusions from those experiences has been that the person who is on the bottom with a knife is in a lot more danger than the person who is mounted on top.
By the way, I have been doing the marker drill for years and have also played around with sacrifice scenarios. The problem with the sacrifice is very basic. Why go for the arm or choke and risk losing position and/or control? I think it is much better to be raining down punches and elbows into the face. Again, just my experience, but I have found that the guy on the bottom never has a chance to get the blade out when you are slamming elbows into his face.
If you have more experience than I do, that’s great. Maybe you can post what has worked and has not worked for you against the knife.
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JWT:
Don’t use a high guard if he already has the knife out. Once the knife comes out, try using an open guard. If he is close enough, and is holding the weapon with his right hand, grab his right wrist with your left hand. Then bring your other hand over his right hand and start to peel the knife back towards him. At the same time you are doing this, extend him out with your feet on his hips. If he starts to counter the peel, start to isolate his arm between you legs as if you were going for an arm bar. Once the arm is isolated, you should be able to finish with a combination arm bar/peel.
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Thank you very much Knifefighter. A good plan, and it works well. The only difficulty I have is that he gets allot of help from gravity on the stab, and it's hard for me to stop and grab the right hand. It is, however, allot easier if I go into an open guard or a butterfly guard. I was getting slapped around by his left a bit until I started pushing his hips out. I'm more comfortable just going into the armbar and, despite my initial concerns of jabbing the knife into my leg, a good armhold keeps the blade poited well away from me, and I still have control of it.
JoJitsu, you're right, I lose side control. The way I do it is ugly, and REALLY sloppy, BUT, I keep the knife hand. My opponent seems to be able to get away, but then again, tha means I can get away too, and again, I keep the knife.
JWT
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Kifefighter - Sorry I misuderstood what you ment for #6. Although I think you underestimate the danger of a knife from a mounted opponent, I certainly agree that's a good position to defend a knife from. There are ones I like more [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
http://www.clearsilat.com/silat/gallery/Image4.jpg
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JWT:
If you are having trouble grabbing the knife hand and he is stabbing down on you, try shifting your body to one side and pushing his hand/arm across your body to the other side before you grab it (if he is stabbing with his right hand, slide your body to your left and simultaneously push his arm to your right with your left hand or both hands). Once you have the arm on the other side, it is much easier to grab and control the hand and go for the arm isolation.
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JWT:
"KnifeFighter, so what you are saying is basically that, in order to keep the arms out of play,establish a HIGH mount. Good enough.
Anything else?"
Yeah, keep those elbows and punches coming down into his face. Here's one of the training methods we have used. The guy on the bottom wears a full-face boxing head gear and hides the blade somewhere on himself. The guy on the top wears heavy elbow pads and hockey gloves. Starting in the full mount, the guy on the top strikes full force with punches and elbows into the head gear. The guy on the bottom tries to draw the weapon. If the guy on the bottom gets the weapon out before he gives up from the blows, they continue on until one person is "killed"
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knife:
ok, you have much more experience than i with grappling and knife fighting. but, is that high level of confidence warranted, or safe?
if you are mounted on top of a guy, and he has a knife that you don't even know about... does that sound like a 'safe' situation?
if he has already drawn it, and you are aware of it, and then get him in the mount, ok, your chances have just gone up, a lot. - but how would you know someone has a knife if he hasn't even drawn it yet? - then how is that marker exercise valid?
would you normally pummel someone you believe to be unarmed into unconsciousness?
do you not believe in 'bargaining', once you have gained an advantage? - e.g. you get into a fight, and you have him on the ground, and are mounted on top of him, and have complete control?
[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif[/img]