If I am not mistaken..Lama Pai is related to the "Hop Ga" system..
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If I am not mistaken..Lama Pai is related to the "Hop Ga" system..
In the only fighting competition I've been in, a Kyokushin Karate tournament, I was knocked out (unable to continue) from a good hard body shot. I also love body shot knockouts in boxing. I think there is a compilation on a tube website.
Anyone care to comment on developing chyuhn / penetration?
it comes from oral history of martial arts in jiangsu province my hometown. during the boxing rebellion lamas introduced spirit possession to produce quick results.
chinese use qigong and taoist magic, tibetans, mongols and manchu use spirit possession.
other than archery and wrestling, some tibetans practiced chinese martial arts. their form and concepts dont differ, we have very close cultural ties. its the teaching of spirit possession that is a giveaway of tibetan and mongol influence. mongols invite animal spirits, tibetans invite buddhist demon princes.
for written documents, one of the republican era shaolin monks wrote about the prevalence of tibetan monks in the boxer rebellion
secondary reasons include:
chinese wrestling with manchu influence use mongol and manchu terms. if you had tibetan influence you would at least have some basic words, like punch or kick.
hap kuen looks exactly like northern martial arts.
hap kuen looks nothing like sichuan and qinghai martial arts.
hap kuen is gangster kung fu. gangsters make a lot of things up.
Might be worth noting that the system is officially titled Bak Hok Pai. "Tibetan" is not really part of the name but is often added to distinguish it from southern white crane arts.
The "Lion's Roar" tradition has an origin myth that is strikingly similar to Hung Mun/Triad myths. Other elements are common to many Chinese systems.
1. A sage/martial genius has a revelatory experience in which he is inspired by a totemic animal to create a fighting system. This happens during a Han golden age (middle of the Ming Dynasty).
2. His system becomes cloistered within a monastery and is developed by monks for several generations.
3. The system leaves its monastic home and becomes associated with a royal family (Qing).
4. A master of the system chooses four disciples to travel with him. Stories link him with great events in local history and folklore. The four disciples are dispersed to wander and teach, never to be heard from again.
5. The master (Sage Dragon--perhaps a Dragon Head?) finds a new home and chooses his last group of disciples to learn all of his fighting skills and advanced medical techniques.
6. The master dies and the five door-closing disciples become the gentlemen warriors, associated with the knights errant of old and form patriotic societies. They inspire youths to become strong and serve the public with their medical clinics. Other business need not be brought up here.
Hakk Kuen also uses spirit possession, or sun-dar.
So does that funky Vietnamese school I see at tournaments sometimes....
I channel in my Uncle Moe sometimes when grappling. He had a great bearhug in his day.
Problem is, when he got older, he needed adult diapers...you don't want to channel in the old Uncle Moe....
Depends on whether he had a violent streak. If he was a gentle soul, leave him at rest. If he got grumpy...well, a big, grumpy, smelly old man is a perfect choice. No one wants to touch him.
Spirit/demon channeling is still pretty common in the south. White Crane uses buddhist symbolism but the problem with a supposedly monastic origin is that Vajrayana schools all begin with practicing compassion. Demonic identification is used as a vehicle for tantric practices only after acknowledging that all tantric work must depend on the ideal of compassion and it requires years of practice. Outside the monastic communities its a different story. Any independent yogi may invite possession by whatever being he chooses.
btw: Vajrapani is an emmanation of Indra. The Indo-European source that gives us Indra and Ching Kang also became the thunder god in the west. Hence, Vajrapani = Thor/Thunaer/Donner. Imagine an angry Thor weilding thunderbolt/hammer with bristling beard and blazing red eyes and you have a pretty image to use for inspiration. The Thais have this guy too; I forget what they call him.
Another demon god used in Tibetan tantric ritual is Heruka=Rig=Heimdal. Hard to imagine the berserkers didn't channel these guys. Drugs alone won't do it.
Just found these videos. Anyone know Sifu Ruhu Zhu? As I understood, Chan Tai San was from Toisan, and Lei Fei San is also either there or nearby, I'm not sure.
Toisan White Crane:
http://www.youtube.com/user/ToisanWC/videos
Having learned a little and seen a lot more I can say that is not CTS lama pai .
I mentioned CTS only because I found it interesting that Toisan would have both Lama and TWC traditions going on. If anyone is intersted, I found this info:
http://www.whitecrane.ws/about-white...u/lineage.html
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/....php?p=1011250
Can anyone say whether Lei Fei San is teaching in Toisan? Why does the area have such a strong Lama/TWC tradition?
Off the top of my head here's a list of some of the White Crane short hands:
Elbows--lots of these. The upper bau jang and downward strike to the collarbone are probably the most useful.
Jin cheui--short jab.
Pek cheui--chop, often done with the ulnar side of the wrist rather than a hammerfist.
Nau sau--grab.
Chin kiu--a trapping hand.
Jaap kiu--obstructing hand.
Kam sau--smothering/pressing with forearm.
Da cheui--short backfist.
Seung lung sau--double dragon hands, an inward elbow wrench.
Hok tauh--crane head strike with the back of wrist. The same hand shape is used for wrist hooks, also frequently trained in the system.
Jaau--monkey hand "claw" for seizing veins, nerves and muscles.
Pak sau--slaps using palm or back of hand.
Fung ngan cheui--phoenix eye strike.
Chaau cheui--hook punch.
Pok yihk--"wing beat," a short hand when used as a backfist groin strike.
Seh ying or snake shaped fist--like a panther fist but with the wrist bent outwards to strike around an obstructing arm, or bent downward to strike points on the arm.
New info to me:
"Originally known as Heyang Quan or Crane/Yang Fist; the “yang” is taken from the name of the place “HuiYang” where this system was centered."
http://eric88ling.wordpress.com/2009...-hap-gar-kuen/
The quote is in reference to Hap Gar. Huiyang appears to be an area near Hong Kong on the mainland. Can anyone confirm or deny the above, especially the name Heyang? I'm curious.
heyang quan means hard crane. its a fujian short hand style.
Back in the 80's when as a teenager I called Chicago's Green Dragon Society for an interview, the brochure they sent me said that was what they did in their art. They called it the Northern temple art of Chi Tao Ch'uan where they harnessed the spirits of wild animal to power their deadly techniques.
Playing games with mental visualization is a quick way to bring on mental issues is some people.
This form came from Sichuan. It was supposed to be the dragon style.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85nMTfiH9_k
That aint from Sichuan and it aint dragon style.Its the beginner long fist form lien bu quan .
Yeah,northern styles stretch their arm out though from what I seen from Lama is that they got a whole different set of ideas than a lota other styles.
The Lien Bu Quan has nothing to do with the longfist system. Any longfist student can skip this form without losing anything. The bow-arrow stance cross punch was added in by GM Han Ching-Tan. It was not there in the original form. What kind of longfist basic training form doesn't even have bow-arrow stance cross punch?
http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/3836/punchz.jpg
Dragon Fist also known as "Continuous Stepping Fist". It was created by grand master Liu Chong Jun, President of the Sichuan Martial Association, about 100 years ago. It was introduced in National Nanjing Wushu college & became a mandatory subject for wushu students. Fast movements are well-arranged & balanced. This is often known as Lien Bu and used as a "basic" set though, technically it does not serve that purpose all that well in that it has few truly basic movements. It is very common, the first form taught, for example in the Northern Shaolin system. This version, taught by the teacher with three helpers, bears little resemblance to the typical beginning level version - though it is definitely the same form. It is a fluid set with some complex hand actions.
I've wondered about this. There is no Tibetan terminology in lama style, but why should there be? I never believed that Sing Lung/ Gold Hook was a Tibetan lama. But he also was not Cantonese and had trouble with the language. His art could have been a Chinese system originating in the north (in an area that was formerly eastern Tibet). His southern students were familiar with local systems and the terminology was borrowed.
Unlike many northern systems lama style does not have poems for most of its sets. I think master Fong Kwan is correct when he asserted that lama style had no specific sets until the period of development in Gwangdong (c. 1850-1950).
If the "lama" system was originated in the North as Bawang suggests then shouldn't we be able to find still some traces in the North??? Some style that closely resemble it?
In our tradition it is mentioned that Aduato was from Qinghai and I honestly do not really care whether the system stems out of some Tibetan origin martial art or not but what I think (very personal idea) is that it could have been originated in the once upon a time in history known as Khan region (east part of the now days Sichuan province) which was then considered part of Tibet and any way under the Tibetan cultural influence. (Still today that region is under a strong Tibetan culture influence, with I heard very "wild" people :D)
Sing Long may have well not been a Tibetan in term or ethnicity but he could have well been a monk from the Lama tradition (whether Tibetan or Han ethnicity).
I still remember the first time I went to visit the Yonghegong 雍和宫temple in Beijing (Lama Temple) in 1994 and while I was setting my first steps inside it I saw a young "monk" (perhaps not a real monk as more a layman providing service at the temple, but he was wearing robes) which was walking towards my direction swinging his arm in what it was clear to me to be a martial technique (i.e. a fist form) but which nature was unfamiliar to me and my till that time experience.
It wasn't until I started with Pak Hok Pai that that episode came back to me with full clarity on what that fist form was....it was a Pao choy, the dots were finally connected.
I can't of course vouch that that monk was practising something similar to mine or whether he was just playing around but I personally feel when he was swinging it it was with martial intent.
Just a memory recollection
Pigua, tong bei, cha chuan seem to have some similarities.
Gru, I have been trying to find related systems as well. Many elements do, as Bawang noted, look "just like northern" systems. But I find no evidence of anything that seems to be a sister style.Quote:
Gru Bianca;1183003]If the "lama" system was originated in the North as Bawang suggests then shouldn't we be able to find still some traces in the North??? Some style that closely resemble it?
Maybe if we find a northern style that features a double paau cheui we will have found it.
The genius behind lama style is that the emphasis always seems to be on training, power structure and conditioning and not on prescriptive technique.
I agree. I don't know how well he would have been received by other buddhist monks in the south. I have read that maht jung/ mi zong budhism largely died out in China centuries ago even though it survived in Korea and Japan. If he was a fighting monk he need not have been a scholar or lama guru so I am doubtful about some of the claims that he became an abbot, but he may well have been a revered member of monastic communities. Some warrior monks were known to retire from their hard and dangerous lives to become scholarly or meditative lamas.Quote:
Sing Long may have well not been a Tibetan in term or ethnicity but he could have well been a monk from the Lama tradition (whether Tibetan or Han ethnicity).
That's a good anecdote. I lived with a Tibetan lama at a dharma center in Hawaii. He was a "dancer" as well as a full master of the Kagyu sect. I never got to see him dance because it was a secret ritual, not a performance art for spectators. But here's the thing: he was a skinny guy but amazingly muscular; his biceps and triceps bulged in his arms. You don't get that from the preparatory dummo exercises. My room was next to his and he spent most of the day in seclusion and I rarelly heard a sound from him. He told me that the Asian way of maintaining military superiority is to hide what you can do and pretend to be weak until the moment you need your strength.Quote:
I still remember the first time I went to visit the Yonghegong 雍和宫temple in Beijing (Lama Temple) in 1994 and while I was setting my first steps inside it I saw a young "monk" (perhaps not a real monk as more a layman providing service at the temple, but he was wearing robes) which was walking towards my direction swinging his arm in what it was clear to me to be a martial technique (i.e. a fist form) but which nature was unfamiliar to me and my till that time experience.
It wasn't until I started with Pak Hok Pai that that episode came back to me with full clarity on what that fist form was....it was a Pao choy, the dots were finally connected.
Not to be picky nor to give the impression to not take into account other people's contribution, but for my personal observation (as such questionable I admit) I find it to be a bit of a stretch the comparison with Tong Bei or Cha Quan; I confess I find Pigua perhaps the closest along side with a version of Hong Quan which video was once posted by Bawang not else for the double Tsinchoy (both arms stretched out in the opposite direction)
Ironically what I found to be closer to our tradition is the way some Kalahary Payatu move
Good point, however as I mentioned yesterday, Mizong Buddhism is (and has always been alive) in Beijing and the west part of Sichuan and the Qinghai region, not to forget Inner and Outer Mongolia.
That said I strongly believe you are spot on with doubting of Sing Long ever being an abbot at some temple; when I went (not long ago) to visit the Qing Yun monastery to search info on our past history I did not find any mention of him in any chart of the Temple's genealogy. The only mention I have found of a Sheng Long (written 升龙) is in a book I bought at the temple. The part mentioning this Sheng Long was saying he was from Guangdong province and a student of the Shaolin tradition...not exactly a Lama :p
i dont have problem with the legend. i have problem with your motive. wong yanlim was number 1 fighter in guangdong but you guys always downplay him and emphasize the exotic kung fu lama.
hap kuen is famous in guangdong for being gangster kung fu. but you guys always advertise it to americans as mystical lama fu.
caravan run to qinghai was the most dangerous route in china. in other parts you can talk your way out or pay a road fee. sometimes your sihing is just playing the bandit to scare the merchants. in qinghai a fourth of the caravan guard dies each trip.
qinghai is where mongols swear an oath to not return to their tribe until they shed blood.
if wong yanlim really worked there then he is a bona fide badass of badasses. why the lama fetish? did this lama fetish start with that shaolin vs lama movie?
ahahahah.... interesting reading....however I need to clarify myself; I do not really care about the "Lama" thing, it's just interesting trying to understand more about the origin, that's all, not that the "Lama" thing gives to the style any additional feature so to speak...
Secondly,.. I do not really refer to Huang Ying Lin that much as in our tradition our reference person is Wang Lin Kai which perhaps judging by his picture may have not been as bad ass as his Kungfu brother Huang Ying lin but...who cares really :D