Yep, probably. Too bad TWS' computer crashed so we could have those e-mails.
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Yep, probably. Too bad TWS' computer crashed so we could have those e-mails.
that was not the reply i got when i emailed Dikotter. Yes it would be nice if i had those email messages from him. from what i can recall the reply to my inquiry was something along the lines of " i have never seen this particular pic of li baoshu before, but that is definately him etc etc". i emailed him back asking where he got the pic he used in his article and he responded with the name of the book(which i have posted on page 78 of this thread).
i find it strange that the response would be as such JP(considering that there was a definite idenitification from prof. dikotter based on his skills of discernment). although it has been a couple of years since i emailed him, and i wouldnt expect that this subject would be on the forefront of his mind. I am not lying about contacting him or lying about what his response was to me at the time i emailed him. (im not that kind of person,ill swear on my life to it).
regardless, the info i recieved already proved to me what i already knew, whether you guys want to say its inconclusive is your interpretation and quite frankly your own denial. The prof. doesnt know of SD nor does he spend his time exlporing the in's and outs of the lineage and history as we have done here countless times. Because The prof. article had no relation to martial arts but contained that pic which is clearly the same as the suit and tie li baoshu, i had wanted to contact him directly and ask him if he thought the two pics were the same individual. he corroborated at the time that it was definately him. Hey and it is possible that he could have changed his mind but i had recieved no follow ups and wouldnt expect that he would email me back.
i maintain my stance based on the info i recieved at the time i asked for it, it proved to me a great many things about the school and my dealings with sd.
i am gone from it now, i am much better off knowing that i dont support or condone an organization,regardless of how good or solid the material is,who misrepresents itself and who fabricates its lineage to further a money making agenda and to ride the coat tail of the TCMA/Shaolin realm. it doesnt matter if you are a good school,if you bullsh!t your trip then you arent worth squat,you lack integrity and honor and that is something thati dont want to be a part of.
So debate away, post your own rhetoric, choke the bandwidth with this thread.
if your conscience doesnt bother you then so be it.
Peace,TWS
Gentlepersons,
I have been travelling and there has been much discussion. I offer some thoughts from my perspective. Take them or leave them as you will. I don't worry about lineage. I really don't care about whether it came straight from wherever. When the rubber meets the road, does it grip? Can Sin The trace his lineage to Da Mo? Who cares. You can't even get a consensus on whether Da Mo existed. I look at it very practically. Does what SD teach makes sense. My academic training teaches me to look at things with an eye toward analysis and proof. The whole hairy guy thing? I don't care if he taught my teacher or not, but I do become concerned when it is proffered as truth as to lineage. I'm ok with no mystery to my teacher's lineage. I get concerned though when someone offers me something that is obviously a hoax to justify importance. It is what it is, if you've got genuine teachings to pass on, you don't need a monkey man. Lest that sound harsh, as I have said before, SD did good things for me. Yet, I feel there is some honsesty lacking. I have studied Japanese, Chinese, SD, Philipino, Indonesian, American martial arts. I love CMA most above all. But what I learned in SD, at a somewhat advanced level, let me down. Here's the deal (I am not the end all be all of martial wisdom, but here's my thoughts) you just can't master monkey, tiger, eagle, crane, tai ji, ba gua, etc. etc. etc, by learning the forms. You have to find a teacher dedicated to teaching those particular things. Each has so much to offer and so many nuances. The nuances get lost in SD, and that's where a martial art lies.
A previous poster asked if I had been cut in a knife fight or training. No, I have not been cut in a knife fight, but I have been injured many times in training. I believe he was responding to my post about Kali and my thoughts that it was a real world method of training. I dont wish to engage in a diXX wagging contest. Kali is very reality oriented and trains as such, depending on the teacher. There is no reason CMA cannot be the same. I am sure a good kick axx hard core muthafucxx jian/dao teacher can do the same. There is much benefit to doing forms with jian/dao without any realism, but to use them as a practical matter is a different thing. Can most CMA practioners do that? I do not denigrate doing sword forms, I love them, but going to real combative application is another level I fear may be missed in many schools. If your school is different, I applaud you. You are in a good place.
LOL at GT.
TWS, for what its worth, I don't think you are lying about Dr. D's responses. Perhaps he is just tired of people from the internet asking him silly questions about a hairy man. But I posted the extra pics (which many would argue hurts SD's claims) because I don't care if Su Kong was real or not. It's never really bothered me so I have no reason to sit on informaiton that may or may not prove he was someone else wor whatever. If I find some information that can actually speak to a claim that is made, I'll talk about it here.
I get tired of statements made (from both camps) that have nothing to support them but suppostition and opinion.
AMEN JP!! Finally someone is making sense. It would be nice to learn from each other instead of bickering back and forth about things that will not inhance your skills in any way as a martial artist.
TWS: I've sit back and watched this thread for quite some time.....it's the same people commenting everytime...even when you go back months or years.....so your mission to discredit SD will not be successful here, your only going round and round with the same people and we're (SD) still growing everyday. It would be nice to share training methods and positive information you've pick up in your studies. I think you have a lot to offer.
Traditional Asian music or classical. Pretty much nothing modern, unless it's movie music.
How about Elvis's "Promised Land"?;)
That is a good analogy... to modern wushu anyway. I'm sure modern wushu had some impact on the teaching of traditional arts, but I think that given the feud between Wushu and Traditional practitioners, they can still be thought as two totally seperate entities.
I've heard the argument of "So what if our style looks different? China made Modern Wushu, so anything from China must look different from the 'original.'" I am sure that the Praying Mantis of today looks somewhat different from Wong Long's original method; but I think that has to do more with the various styles that came about (Seven Star, Plum Flower, Taiji Mantis, Six Harmonies, Eight Step, etc.) than with any possible influence from Modern Wushu (yes, I know they have a mantis form.) Many mantis schools in the U.S get their lineage from Taiwan or Hong Kong. These two places were places of refuge for Martial Artists fleeing persecution during the cultural revolution.
As for "sweetness"; styles such as Longfist (just about every sub-category) Pigua, Eagle Claw, Mizong, etc. have had high, spinning kicks and jumps for a LONG time. I'm talking about before Modern Wushu was even thought of. The difference between these styles (traditional Long Fist was the basis upon which Modern Wushu was developed) was the forms, martial flavor and intent, and MUCH less emphasis on these difficult techniques. Most traditional styles will teach a 360 degree jump-spinning crescent. Wushu will teach a 540 degree kick with a run across the room, landing in a split.
In short, like Chinatown food, the Shaolin currently taught at the Shaolin temple may be different from pre-20th Century Shaolin. And yes, some of the monks do Wushu. However, from what I have seen of them in performances, that is not ALL they do, as some like to claim. The Chinese government does not currently regulate Shaolin or any other traditional style, unless you count the compulsories that SHAOLIN ITSELF created and wants to get accepted in Wushu competition. These look NOTHING like Wushu Changquan. Nor do the traditional forms taught in the Shaolin curriculum like Da/Xiao Hong, Da/Xiao Lohan, Seven Star fist (not mantis), etc.
To each their own. I like a bit more "umph" behind my work-out music. Now the pan flute isn't bad if I'm doing tai chi, but even then I like a more modern influence to my music.