Ahh, they're just getting with the times. They're jumping on the U.S. Capitalist fascist bus instead of the old Communist fascist bus is all. LOL
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Yeah, I know. But, thats the same as saying that everyone else is not shaolin temple kung fu, regardless if their henan, fujian (fukien), etc... As history documents several times Southern shaolin temple broke away from Northern S.T. for reasons of political debate and misshaps... Now Northen and Southern are represents together as one again, lol... This is because the PRC have investments and control of both now.... Who knows? I guess everyone should jump on the bandwagon together, the hell with everything else (figuritively speaking)...
Well, there will be resistance here in the U.S.. We'll see what happens when Songshan get their trademark, lol... It will only be for Sonshan and their kungfu, Songshan shaolin kungfu... One entity will not be able to soley TM all of shaolin kungfu.... It's impossible..... Therefore, they can only lay claim to what they representns and their methods...
The name fell into public domain some 1498+ years ago
This is a fairly long post, I'm going to break it up into several parts. If you're interested please read and comment, if not you might have to jump ahead a few pages. I apologize for the length, but wanted to be as complete and accurate as possible.
I am a long-time practitioner of Shaolin and have known Sin and Hiang The for over 25 years. I recently came across this forum a few weeks ago and took a while to read over some of the posts. The biggest surprise for me was to discover how much Sin’s club has expanded over the past few years. Several items concerning the system and Sin’s history need to be clarified and I intend to set the record straight. None of my comments should be mistaken for value judgments, except where I clearly say so. If you enjoy what you’re doing, and you’re not hurting anyone in the process, then by all means continue. My motivation for speaking out is simple; my friends and I are getting older and the longer we wait the more damage will be done.
First, I’m not going to be drawn into an argument about whether or not the brothers learned a true CMA system. Many of the members of this forum claim that a person can only really learn one system in a lifetime, yet in the same post are able to render instantaneous judgment about the validity of every form they see. No further comments on these weak arguments or fallacious reasoning are needed.
Second, right or wrong, both brothers were given an extremely traditional martial arts education. The material is similarly presented to their students and they are drilled in that material during limited class hours. If the student can’t remember how to do the form or technique correctly, and won’t ask a question about why they look so ridiculous doing the material, then that situation is on them. Nothing further needs to be said, if you don’t like that method of instruction I understand completely, but all of the posts in the world aren’t going to change it. For example, when I saw the clip from the Soard’s school in Denver of some guy doing Fung Wong Chuey Han Chien (The Mad Drunk) I was stunned. I could barely recognize it. But I’ll focus my concern on how I perform the material and move forward, asking questions, taking notes to ensure that I’m on the right track. Bottom line: This is my opinion why so many people who have studied the system present their material weakly or incorrectly.
Here’s my thesis and I’ll provide supporting information: Sin The was a well-trained, gifted and dedicated martial artist (quite frankly a natural athlete, incredibly powerful), who shortly after he arrived in Lexington, KY in 1964 began to exaggerate his background and ranking for undetermined reasons. When his younger brother, Hiang, arrived four years later, he was calling himself the grandmaster of a system called “Shao-lin Karate-do” and the “Sin The Karate Club.” Although Master Hiang acquiesced to the situation for undetermined reasons, family loyalty to the eldest son probably played a part. In addition, he had just arrived from Indonesia, barely spoke English and his brother was his only link to home.
Lineage of the Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts School.
Grandmaster Su Kong Tai Jin: There’s no need to go over this story again, it’s been repeated often enough on this forum. But briefly, Master Su Kong was the head of the martial arts program at the Fukien Temple. Every Shaolin Temple had an Abbot, a senior Buddhist and a senior martial artist. Master Hiang has several photos of him and has no reason to doubt his existence. However, he has stated several times that when he was a young man training, he didn’t concern himself enough with the oral history and tradition. Most guys in their teenage years, early twenties wouldn’t either. Several people on this forum are apparently world-class historians, researchers and Chinese linguists who have pronounced the lack of documentation on this man means he didn’t exist. If they provide evidence of their background and research on the subject I would accept it. In the meantime to draw a conclusion from premises stating that nothing is know or proven is a fallacy of weak induction; more specifically known as an Appeal to Ignorance. Besides, if you’re going to lie about the identity of someone in this case wouldn’t you just get a photo of some random Asian guy?
Grandmaster Ie Chang Ming – (Tie Chang Sang Ren) 1882-1968: Master Ie was a disciple at the Fukien Shaolin Temple from the age of six. In his early 20s he fled the chaos of China and ended up in Indonesia. After reuniting with several other colleagues from the Fukien Temple many years later, they formed the Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts School. Master Ie was the founder of the school and named the grandmaster. (The last two sentences are important, please re-read.) He was Sin and Hiang’s (and their other brother and sisters) maternal grandfather. He passed away in 1968, and his grave is marked and dated. I do not understand the confusion on this issue. While Master Hiang did not broadcast this fact until the mid-1980s, he never lied about it.
Grandmaster Hiang Kwang The – (Liu Fo Se): Like many of the Chinese that settled in Indonesia, they changed their family name to conceal their ethnicity. Their family name is Chen. If you are a Chinese linguist you can look at the character (on website) for more information. Pronunciation and transliteration of the character will vary. The brothers’ father was a senior political official with Sun Yat Sen’s Chinese nationalist movement and when they fled China in the early 1940’s they left their homes, property and extended family. The ethnic Chinese in Indonesia continue to be routinely persecuted on a racial and religious basis. This fact needs to be understood and applied where appropriate. Master Hiang has told me several times the number of friends and acquaintances that were killed when he was growing up in Bandung, over two dozen.
Although Master Hiang arrived in the U.S. in 1968, he continued to return to Indonesia to train with Master Liu Su Peng (Sen Pien Sow) and others after the death of Grandmaster Ie. Two of these trips lasted over a year each. He received his last promotion to seventh-level in 1978 shortly before Master Liu’s death that year.
In 2001 Master Hiang’s senior students realized that the schism in the school with Sin’s students was irreparable and they requested that we change the name of our school to the one he trained in with his grandfather. His senior students then ordered his red/black belt and agreed that in light of the historical situation and facts that he was now the legitimate grandmaster of the Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts School. (Infighting in the school in Bandung over a decade ago had caused the school to fall apart years ago.) Master Hiang never named himself the grandmaster or pressured anybody to come to this conclusion. If his senior students hadn’t acted, he would still be wearing the same threadbare belt, indicating his seventh-degree rank, he earned from his teachers almost 15 years ago. His most senior students ordered and paid for the new one.
The Lineage of Sin The’s Shaolin Karate-do.
The first point of reference is the certificate that is hanging in the main (headquarters) school of the organization headed by Sin. This certificate is described on the website as “Certificate to Grandmaster Sin The from deceased Grandmaster Ie Chang Ming” (http://www.sinthe.com/images/2004/GMcertificate.jpg). An independent and professional translation company on the west coast has recently translated this document and the findings are noteworthy. Since the cost to have this certificate translated was not insignificant, I am not going to provide the entire text. If you doubt the validity or accuracy, then pay to have your own translation produced and we can proceed from there.
The document is titled, “Graduate Certificate.” It states that Sin began his studies in the Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts School in 1954 at the age of 10. His program of instruction lasted 10 years and the document lists when he achieved what level; the last of which was fifth level in 1963. The certificate states that Sin “minored” in the followed: Jin She Quan (Golden Snake Boxing), Quan Feng Tui (Cyclone Kick) and Tie Zhi Gong (Iron Finger Kung-fu). It goes on to state that he excelled in all of his studies, and participated in open competitions winning top honors. The certificate has the seal of the Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts School and the seal of Ie Chang Ming, “Master of Iron Palm” and “Founder and Principal.” The document’s date is listed as 15 January 1964.
This document is hanging in his school, and posted on his website. The translation poses a number of problems to the Sin The story, most of which are obvious, but I’ll list them nevertheless.
First, there is nothing to indicate this document is naming Sin as the grandmaster. Quite the opposite, it is signed by Ie Chang Ming who is listed as founder and principal of the school.
Second, a fifth level certificate doesn’t qualify a person in the Chung Yen Shaolin system to call themselves a master or to promote people to the level of master.
Third, the dates conflict significantly with the information posted on the main Shaolin Do website about Sin’s training and background. (http://www.sinthe.com/grandmaster.html) In this version Sin (born 1944) began his training at age 7 and was given the title of grandmaster at age 25 when Master Ie retired.
Fourth, the same webpage states that, “In Shaolin Do, this body of knowledge is almost limitless, as Grandmaster Thé constantly reveals new training and forms from the 900-plus Shaolin forms he has mastered.” There is nothing on this certificate to indicate anything to support these statements.
Fifth, Sin has never taught any of the material in which he “minored.” There is a reasonably simple explanation for this situation. He has forgotten it, along with most of the other material he was taught as a young man. I realize this is a strong statement, but I think I have two pieces of information to support me. When Sin started teaching the “11 New Material” class in the early 1980s (all supposedly basic stuff for the most part), it was unbelievably chaotic. He would start a class, be gone for nearly 30 minutes, then return that day or next week with significantly changes. This was a routine experience in his other classes (Hua, Hsing I, Black Tiger, etc.) and if the SD posters to this forum are honest, they’ll confirm it. The other reason I believe Sin has lost his material and notes (if he ever had any) was found in his attempt in the early 1990s to sue a student teaching for Master Hiang for copyright infringement. Unbelievably, Sin thought he could press a legal claim for being the head of the entire Shaolin system and that he had ‘trademarked’ all the material. The suit was dismissed and never came to trial, but during a deposition, Sin’s attorney attempted to gain access to Master Hiang’s voluminous notes and videos of the material he had learned and to copy all of them. The attempt failed and neither Sin nor any of his students gained access to Master Hiang’s notes.
This information helps to clarify some of the interesting things that I, and many hundreds of other people, witnessed during the years preceding 1984. From shortly after his arrival in the U.S. and until the Sports Center opened in the late 1970s, Master Hiang had a separate school in a different section of Lexington. When the Sports Center opened, Master Hiang did not teach any of Sin’s classes and vice versa. For example, in the early 1980s when Master Hiang was in Indonesia for over a year, he had his own senior students (not Bill Leonard or Eric Smith) take over his classes for him, not Sin.
Finally, in the infamous tournament of 1983, Sin stepped out onto the floor and announced to everyone he was promoting Master Hiang to 8th degree. He had the new belt in his hands. Master Hiang refused to walk out onto the floor or to accept the belt. Hundreds of people witnessed this event.
Conclusions: Sin is not a master or grandmaster of any system other than the one he created in the mid-1960s called “Shaolin Karate-do.” I realize the angst this will cause all of the SD supporters on this forum, given their convoluted and strained attempts at validating the “Shaolin Do” name. However, I still have a patch with these exact words on it, so all of the SD groupies can put down the Kool-Aid and take a deep breath.
that has to be the most well thought out most informative post i have read on here.
anyone have any evidence to refute it? gt? bq? kc?
I stopped by to unsubscribe to this thread, as it is pretty much retarded, and fills my junk mail addy with ridiculous alerts. Then I read Valla's indictment/manifesto. All I have to say is LO fu**ing L.
funny thing is that this is not the first or second time I have heard this....very interesting..to say the least......bluegrass conspiracy?!?!?!I have heard and know a little about it ....but would like to know more..just for history sake!!
I'm not going to lose any sleep tonight KFJ it's late here and I'm going to bed...just one of Hiang's senior students opening up an old wound...it will give everybody something new to talk about. I don't even want to get started on Hiang anyway....I studied under him also:cool:
I would like to defend EML but he can do that himself without me. Will add that the book sucks.
Yeah, I'll get back to you on it. It's too early for that much typing right now.Quote:
anyone have any evidence to refute it? gt? bq? kc?