This brings the question as to what are the differences between the two Brother's curriculems.
Does Hiang 'The have a more recognizable Shaolin curriculem? If so, what in his system is compareable to other well known southern Shaolin systems?
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This brings the question as to what are the differences between the two Brother's curriculems.
Does Hiang 'The have a more recognizable Shaolin curriculem? If so, what in his system is compareable to other well known southern Shaolin systems?
Since most of your claims are slanted towards M. Hiang and are derogatory towards M. Sin, I have to conclude that all your statements are value judgements.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenza aka Water Dragon aka zendawg
Perhaps you and your friends should have come to the school and voiced these concerns rather than on a public forum where at best, it would only reach 10 or 15 of the students you are so concerned about.Quote:
My motivation for speaking out is simple; my friends and I are getting older and the longer we wait the more damage will be done.
And during this time, M. Hiang never once hinted anything otherwise. He never refered to M. Ie as his grandfather, ALWAYS refered to M. Sin as the grand master and from stories I have heard lately, no longer has a link back home.Quote:
Although Master Hiang acquiesced to the situation for undetermined reasons, family loyalty to the eldest son probably played a part. In addition, he had just arrived from Indonesia, barely spoke English and his brother was his only link to home.
There has been much confusion about this but I clearly remember when and how it came out. M. Haing returned from Indo and told EML in the car on the way back from the airport. It was not in '68, I do know that but months after the fact in '76.Quote:
He passed away in 1968, and his grave is marked and dated. I do not understand the confusion on this issue. While Master Hiang did not broadcast this fact until the mid-1980s, he never lied about it.
This is true, I remember it well.Quote:
Although Master Hiang arrived in the U.S. in 1968, he continued to return to Indonesia to train with Master Liu Su Peng (Sen Pien Sow) and others after the death of Grandmaster Ie. Two of these trips lasted over a year each. He received his last promotion to seventh-level in 1978 shortly before Master Liu’s death that year.
If M. Sin was always his senior in rank, and they both studied at the same school, how did that allow him to become the "grandmaster"?Quote:
His senior students then ordered his red/black belt and agreed that in light of the historical situation and facts that he was now the legitimate grandmaster of the Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts School.
It is a certificate to M. Sin from M. Ie. I might also add that it is my understanding that M. Hiang has the original and for some reason, won't give it back to M. Sin.Quote:
The first point of reference is the certificate that is hanging in the main (headquarters) school of the organization headed by Sin. This certificate is described on the website as “Certificate to Grandmaster Sin The from deceased Grandmaster Ie Chang Ming”
As for the translation, I used to have it but don't have it handy at the moment. But the poster is correct on most of it. I did find it odd that my translation had "minored" as "excelled" in.
Thats because, as you stated, M. Sin was not named Grand Master until '68, also in a letter that I believe that M. Hiang has. It's been discussed before.Quote:
First, there is nothing to indicate this document is naming Sin as the grandmaster. Quite the opposite, it is signed by Ie Chang Ming who is listed as founder and principal of the school.
Then why did M. Hiang always refer to him as Master Sin?Quote:
Second, a fifth level certificate doesn’t qualify a person in the Chung Yen Shaolin system to call themselves a master or to promote people to the level of master.
It has always been told that Master Sin started training with M. Ie long before he was accepted as a student. Otherwise, I have no explanation to this.Quote:
Third, the dates conflict significantly with the information posted on the main Shaolin Do website about Sin’s training and background. In this version Sin (born 1944) began his training at age 7 and was given the title of grandmaster at age 25 when Master Ie retired.
I know about twice as many forms that are listed on a masters certificate. This means nothing.Quote:
Fourth, the same webpage states that, “In Shaolin Do, this body of knowledge is almost limitless, as Grandmaster Thé constantly reveals new training and forms from the 900-plus Shaolin forms he has mastered.” There is nothing on this certificate to indicate anything to support these statements.
With all the material that he has taught out, including most of the forms that make up Hiangs Central Shaolin by the way, one would think that if he wanted to teach them, he would. Or heck, make them up even if he forgot them.Quote:
Fifth, Sin has never taught any of the material in which he “minored.” There is a reasonably simple explanation for this situation. He has forgotten it, along with most of the other material he was taught as a young man.
That would happen from time to time, but having taught for many years, I am guilty that myself. And also, any change that was made was always explained, not just done differently each time. And he still does that, just so you know.Quote:
When Sin started teaching the “11 New Material” class in the early 1980s (all supposedly basic stuff for the most part), it was unbelievably chaotic. He would start a class, be gone for nearly 30 minutes, then return that day or next week with significantly changes.
One of those mentioned was Hiang's senior student. And that was after the split when Hiang started teaching at the Y. And it was taught by the much less that senior students that left with Hiang. Except for the two that later went over that are strangely absent from the Central Shaolin website.Quote:
When the Sports Center opened, Master Hiang did not teach any of Sin’s classes and vice versa. For example, in the early 1980s when Master Hiang was in Indonesia for over a year, he had his own senior students (not *****) take over his classes for him, not Sin.
I was there for that one. But I was there at the next one that got Hiang removed from the club. A pity actually.Quote:
Finally, in the infamous tournament of 1983, Sin stepped out onto the floor and announced to everyone he was promoting Master Hiang to 8th degree. He had the new belt in his hands. Master Hiang refused to walk out onto the floor or to accept the belt. Hundreds of people witnessed this event.
M. Sin left for California in '91, long after the split. You have your information way off there. Oh, and there are 3 kids, not 2.Quote:
When Master Hiang left the country to visit his family in Indonesia he returned to find the club closed and all of the equipment in it gone(more than half of which he owned). Sin had abandoned his students and family in Lexington (he and his wife Lucia had divorced a few years ago, his children ***** and ***** were still in the area), and traveled to California where he announced he was going to be a movie star
Of course not.Quote:
This discourse is not meant as an indictment against the many fine and good people who study in schools affiliated with Sin The.
Same stuff....Quote:
This brings the question as to what are the differences between the two Brother's curriculems.
Does Hiang 'The have a more recognizable Shaolin curriculem? If so, what in his system is compareable to other well known southern Shaolin systems?
http://www.centralshaolin.com/cshaol...rial_list.html
I'll ask before MK gets the chance: Does Hiang have any photos of Master Ie too? :p
Well, you would think since the guy just died in 76 or so that you'd have some photograpghs. Especially since you have TWO of Su Kong (minus the crop of the bear).
You would think . . . . Maybe he didn't like photos and just wanted his picture painted all the time.
Here’s my thesis and I’ll provide supporting information: Sin The was a well-trained, gifted and dedicated martial artist (quite frankly a natural athlete, incredibly powerful), who shortly after he arrived in Lexington, KY in 1964 began to exaggerate his background and ranking for undetermined reasons. When his younger brother, Hiang, arrived four years later, he was calling himself the grandmaster of a system called “Shao-lin Karate-do” and the “Sin The Karate Club.” Although Master Hiang acquiesced to the situation for undetermined reasons, family loyalty to the eldest son probably played a part. In addition, he had just arrived from Indonesia, barely spoke English and his brother was his only link to home.[/QUOTE]
You were not around then, your basing this on what you were told by M. Hiang
Although Master Hiang acquiesced to the situation for undetermined reasons, family loyalty to the eldest son probably played a part. In addition, he had just arrived from Indonesia, barely spoke English and his brother was his only link to home. [/QUOTE]
From what I hear he will not be travelling home anytime soon
There has been much confusion about this but I clearly remember when and how it came out. M. Haing returned from Indo and told EML in the car on the way back from the airport. It was not in '68, I do know that but months after the fact in '76.
Yeah I always thought this was pretty ****ty, that GMS found out about GMIe's death 2nd hand a considerable time after the fact...typical Hiang
Quote:
Although Master Hiang arrived in the U.S. in 1968, he continued to return to Indonesia to train with Master Liu Su Peng (Sen Pien Sow) and others after the death of Grandmaster Ie. Two of these trips lasted over a year each. He received his last promotion to seventh-level in 1978 shortly before Master Liu’s death that year.
True, I was in M. Hiang's breathing & meditation class that part of his studies for this promotion
Third, the dates conflict significantly with the information posted on the main Shaolin Do website about Sin’s training and background. In this version Sin (born 1944) began his training at age 7 and was given the title of grandmaster at age 25 when Master Ie retired
He also began training with another master first before he began his training with GMIe
Quote:
When Master Hiang left the country to visit his family in Indonesia he returned to find the club closed and all of the equipment in it gone(more than half of which he owned). Sin had abandoned his students and family in Lexington (he and his wife Lucia had divorced a few years ago, his children ***** and ***** were still in the area), and traveled to California where he announced he was going to be a movie star
He abandoned nobody.....like GT said your way off on the dates here.....GSM had aready remarried and divorced for the 2nd time ( I've done that).....his children were taking care of themselves by then except the youngest who lived with Lucia in Tenn......he turned the gym over to EML...was dating a very good friend of mine and I personally moved his belongings out of his appt. into storage...1991
More later...I'm at work:)
One more thing...I wonder if M. Hiang know about this:D
He does now.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagualin
I'll give my opinion...not that I'm even in the system, nor was I highly ranked. Just researched as much as I could about it.
I think GM Ie is the maternal grandfather. It just makes sense. It explains (beyond simply skill) why Sin would receive the GM title even though Hiang kept returning for more training. (I've also seen copies of letters granting that title and Ie refers to either himself as grandfather or Sin as grandson.) My understanding is that when GM Sin is asked who will be the next GM he laughs and says his grandson. A family tradition? It's certainly not rare in Chinese styles to pass systems through families. GT says, "It has always been told that Master Sin started training with M. Ie long before he was accepted as a student." To me, that's more data suggesting a familial relationship.
I don't think Sin has forgotten his primary styles...I think he's keeping it for the family member he intends to follow him as GM. I've seen documents indicating that GM Ie also "majored" in golden snake. I think GM Sin considers that style the "little bit you hold back" so prevailant in Chinese martial arts.
GT - "If M. Sin was always his senior in rank, and they both studied at the same school, how did that allow him to become the "grandmaster"?"
Hiang's group seems to ignore the elevation of Sin to GM...only granting that Sin was ranked 5th in the system. I've heard a million explanations for this...one was that 5th was the highest rank until Sin came to the U.S. and told Ie about people with higher ranks. That doesn't gel with Hiang being ranked 7th though. I think it's pretty clear that Ie wanted Sin to "inherit" the system, but I also think Hiang earned 7th and Sin earned 5th. So, the question becomes who is "worthy" of inheriting a system? The gifted prodigy/eldest grandson who was named GM by the previous GM, or the (by all accounts) less gifted but perhaps more tenacious/experienced younger sibling?
GT - "I did find it odd that my translation had "minored" as "excelled" in."
Mine also, and mine came from one of Hiang's students.
RD - "This brings the question as to what are the differences between the two Brother's curriculems."
GT is right, it's basically the same thing. I'm not sure if GM Sin teaches Lee tai chi, which I've heard is the tai chi they got in Indonesia...
Hiang also teaches an 18 form tai peng system and an 18 form double dagger system...which were his specialty I believe. There are a few more as well...and, obviously, SD teaches a lot that Hiang doesn't.
I've heard many stories about M. Hiang, but would never post them here.
Also, given that the curriculum of Hiang's school is the same as GMT's school, any condemnation of GMT's school is a condemnation of Hiang's school. It surprises me that Lorenzo would post his diatribe in this forum.
Only after they became "Hiangs group". Every one of his upper level students very happily refered to Master Sin as GM up until the split. After the split, everything seemed to change and their memory faded a bit it seems. But I was in class with most of them every week so I do know that for a fact. Then they went their way, we went ours and all was fine and dandy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rad
[QUOTE=Baqualin;708870]In 2001 Master Hiang’s senior students realized that the schism in the school with Sin’s students was irreparable and they requested that we change the name of our school to the one he trained in with his grandfather. His senior students then ordered his red/black belt and agreed that in light of the historical situation and facts that he was now the legitimate grandmaster of the Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts School. (Infighting in the school in Bandung over a decade ago had caused the school to fall apart years ago.) Master Hiang never named himself the grandmaster or pressured anybody to come to this conclusion. If his senior students hadn’t acted, he would still be wearing the same threadbare belt, indicating his seventh-degree rank, he earned from his teachers almost 15 years ago. His most senior students ordered and paid for the new one.Nah, rank doesn't mean as much to me...plus I likde earning things on my own.Quote:
Is this a first in Martial Arts History.....Students in charge of rank promotions:confused: Hey GT I promote you to 6th...JP,KC,KFJ,TTM....even MK(your not in SD but what the heck) what rank would you like:D
I've decided not to post anymore on this subject out of respect to GSM and his family....we do not bother Central Shaolin here or in Lexington and I'm not going to stoup to Lorenzo's level. My hackles got a little raised about what was said about GMS, EML and EMS by someone who has been led astray...I've probally already said to much:rolleyes: