WSL Ving Tsun - Sifu Cliff Au Yeung - Blindfold Gor Sau Training

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Originally Posted by k gledhill

Not my sensitivity. Lsjc is lost when too much sticky hands is done.

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Why whenever anyone mentions sensitivity do some people assume this equates to arm chasing. All high level fighters in all systems develop tactile responses its just that many systems rely on experience to teach it rather than having specific drills. Using the tactile responses is far faster than having rely on visual processing. When you are doing your lap sao drills do you rely on your eyes to tell you that the partner has made contact with your arm? or can you tell without looking when they over commit and cross the centre line or alternatively come up short? This is sensitivity, using the information that your arms receive upon contact to find angles and gaps, nothing to do with sticking or chasing arms, and what Ip Man was referring to when he said " the opponent will show you how to hit them"

I'm not prepared to critique the chi-sau in this clip as it is quite different to what our group practices. I do however feel that blindfolded chi sau (or simply shutting your eyes for a bit) can train useful attributes ...if not overdone.

As others noted this practice may help with "lat sau jik chung", but sometimes students will just try to defend themselves by reverting to chasing hands. I think a better use of shutting your eyes when training is to work on maintaining forward pressure from your stance through your fingers, because the one thing you can't do with your eyes shut is to let a gap develop between yourself and your opponent.

As far as applications go, I think realizing that you are not totally dependent upon visual cues (as is a long range fighter) helps build confidence. Also, over the years, I have run into a couple of visually impaired WC students. Once they made contact, their disadvantage was greatly reduced. Not reduced enough to fight a wary and evasive long-range fighter in a sparring session, but perhaps enough to defend themselves against some foolish punk who tries to take advantage of their "disability" and grab them.

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Originally Posted by wingchunIan

This is sensitivity, using the information that your arms receive upon contact to find angles and gaps

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Absolute rubbish! Have you ever had a real fight mate? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Grumblegeezer

As others noted this practice may help with "lat sau jik chung",

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"may" help? What do you mean?

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Originally Posted by Graham H

Absolute rubbish! Have you ever had a real fight mate? :rolleyes:

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I think developing Lsjc in chi sau is, as wingchunIan notes, to use "[...] the information that your arms receive upon contact to find angles and gaps".

However, I feel the idea of Lsjc and the rattan cane are perhaps more relevant to developing fighting skills through chi sau.

Yes, you can feel for a gap but you don't process that information through your mind; that forward intent is already there so that when the linchpin is removed, your strike is already on its way.

I must add that lsjc, for me at least, has been hard to develop; particularly the subtleties and balance so that your opponent cannot use that intent against you. I will also add that, at least through the Ip Chun lineage I initially trained through, lsjc is not something trained very often nor is it, much to my frustration, a concept made explicit to students.

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I think developing Lsjc in chi sau is, as wingchunIan notes, to use "[...] the information that your arms receive upon contact to find angles and gaps".

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Eh? So you are saying that LSJC is about receiving information are you? :eek:

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However, I feel the idea of Lsjc and the rattan cane are perhaps more relevant to developing fighting skills through chi sau.

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Jesus! LSJC has nothing to do with rattan circles!

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Yes, you can feel for a gap but you don't process that information through your mind; that forward intent is already there so that when the linchpin is removed, your strike is already on its way.

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Poppy****!

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I must add that lsjc, for me at least, has been hard to develop; particularly the subtleties and balance so that your opponent cannot use that intent against you. I will also add that, at least through the Ip Chun lineage I initially trained through, lsjc is not something trained very often nor is it, much to my frustration, a concept made explicit to students.

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LSJC is an important part of Ving Tsun. It's not hard to develop if the training methods are correct unless the student is a bit useless. maintaining it in sparring is another story. I never even heard of LSJC in the Ip Chun lineage.

LSJC has been roughly translated to "loss of contact, thrust forward without hesitation". People wrongly assume that the "loss of contact" bit means that we already have arm contact and when it is released we should thrust forward using some kind of springy energy. That is a common misconception in Wing Chun.

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Originally Posted by Graham H

Absolute rubbish! Have you ever had a real fight mate? :rolleyes:

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unfortunately I've had plenty of them. It's you that is in denial over something that is so real and present in every single fighting system ever practiced. You are almost certainly employing it in your own training / fighting even if you don't realise it or wish to acknowledge it.

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Originally Posted by wingchunIan

unfortunately I've had plenty of them. It's you that is in denial over something that is so real and present in every single fighting system ever practiced. You are almost certainly employing it in your own training / fighting even if you don't realise it or wish to acknowledge it.

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So you are saying that when I spar in Ving Tsun and/or when I have been in a street ruck that I am sensing energy in my opponents arms and using this to find gaps and lines of attack??? You are actually telling me that I am and that I don't realize it and that I am in denial??? Really??

Typical Ip Chun Benny Hill you are mate. Put me back on your ignore list FFS! :mad:

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Originally Posted by Graham H

LSJC is an important part of Ving Tsun. It's not hard to develop if the training methods are correct unless the student is a bit useless. maintaining it in sparring is another story. I never even heard of LSJC in the Ip Chun lineage.

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My own lineage is Ip Chun and we teach LSJC as part of SNT and it is a source of emphasis as soon as a student starts poon sao or any other interactive training. It is one of the core concepts we teach and it receives a great deal of emphasis.

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LSJC has been roughly translated to "loss of contact, thrust forward without hesitation". People wrongly assume that the "loss of contact" bit means that we already have arm contact and when it is released we should thrust forward using some kind of springy energy. That is a common misconception in Wing Chun.

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Our definition of LSJC is applies any time that there is nothing between the the striking limb and the target whether there was contact in the first place or not, but it is interesting to note that the concept you describe is part of the majority of wing chun teachings including most of Ip Man's direct students. Also interesting how often the first two thirds of the maxim get omitted

Graham, you have misunderstood some of what I have said.

I do say in my post that by information I am being very broad and I am quick to move away from Ian's position; I even say I am not referring to using the mind to think. If I feel pressure or an absence of pressure, that is still information for my body. To my mind lsjc is still conditioning a response to stimuli or information so I see that as bound up with it.

Further I am talking about a rattan cane not a circle; it is flexible like bamboo and springy. Yes, that is to think of lsjc in that way; it is very subtle though and more a trigger for movement for the strike once the gap is there; that forward light springy intent as a c o c k e d hammer of a gun that can trigger a more explosive and powerful burst, here the movements for a strike with hips and elbows connected.

Incidentally, a lot of what I outline above is just my thoughts and most of those thoughts have come from others not associated with or training through an Ip Chun lineage.

Please feel free to post up your further analogies to help me better understand this concept.

p.s.

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Originally Posted by Graham H

[...] It's not hard to develop if the training methods are correct unless the student is a bit useless.
[...]

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A bit ad hominem, no?

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Originally Posted by Graham H

LSJC has been roughly translated to "loss of contact, thrust forward without hesitation". People wrongly assume that the "loss of contact" bit means that we already have arm contact and when it is released we should thrust forward using some kind of springy energy. That is a common misconception in Wing Chun.

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I know what you mean when others only focus on this "springy energy" effect once contact is made, and even seek to make contact so they can use it as some sort of sensitivity trick but neglect constant forward energy as a general principle. They are misguided, but from my viewpoint you're confusing LSJC with LLHS. What I mean:

The way I understand the LLHS-LSJC phrase is interaction between the opponent and yourself, how to act in relation to the opponent;

-When the opponent "advances" (loi) you "remain" (lau), i.e. make use of angling and such to keep the pressure forward but don't retreat taking pressure away.
-When the opponent "retreats" (heui) you "see them off" (sung), i.e. you advance keeping the pressure on them.
-When the opponent's "arm is removed" (lat-sau) you "rush straight" (jik-chung), i.e. you strike forward to their center.

LLHS is all about that constant forward energy.
LSJC is an effect of that energy when met with and once breaking obstruction.

I see you interpreting LSJC as LLHS, i.e. constant forward energy moving the whole structure as one unit. As a result, you replace LSJC with LLHS and deny the "springy energy" effect.

Well, what happens when contact is made with that sort of forward energy and is then suddenly lost, either by means of you removing the obstacle or the opponent taking their arm away? Do you not automatically "thrust forward without hesitation"? That is the LSJC part. If you aren't getting that effect, then something is wrong with your LLHS/forward energy. That's why it appears first in the phrase.

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Originally Posted by Graham H

Jesus! LSJC has nothing to do with rattan circles!

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Yes, not circles - rattan canes. As Yip Man spoke about in the interview he gave to NMH magazine.

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Originally Posted by Graham H

LSJC is an important part of Ving Tsun. It's not hard to develop if the training methods are correct unless the student is a bit useless. maintaining it in sparring is another story. I never even heard of LSJC in the Ip Chun lineage.

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Yes, maintaining it in sparring is not easy. I was told about LSJC in my Ip Chun lineage, but that was as far as it went. An instructor talked about it. There was never any process of showing how to develop it, sadly.

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Originally Posted by Graham H

People wrongly assume that the "loss of contact" bit means that we already have arm contact and when it is released we should thrust forward using some kind of springy energy. That is a common misconception in Wing Chun.

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Again, Yip Man mentioned this specifically. I am sure he didn't have a misconception of Wing Chun ;)

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Graham, you have misunderstood some of what I have said.

I do say in my post that by information I am being very broad and I am quick to move away from Ian's position; I even say I am not referring to using the mind to think. If I feel pressure or an absence of pressure, that is still information for my body. To my mind lsjc is still conditioning a response to stimuli or information so I see that as bound up with it.

Further I am talking about a rattan cane not a circle; it is flexible like bamboo and springy. Yes, that is to think of lsjc in that way; it is very subtle though and more a trigger for movement for the strike once the gap is there; that forward light springy intent as a c o c k e d hammer of a gun that can trigger a more explosive and powerful burst, here the movements for a strike with hips and elbows connected.

Incidentally, a lot of what I outline above is just my thoughts and most of those thoughts have come from others not associated with or training through an Ip Chun lineage.

Please feel free to post up your further analogies to help me better understand this concept.

p.s.

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Why don't you just explain your understanding of what LSJC is.

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A bit ad hominem, no?

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No

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Originally Posted by LFJ

The way I understand the LLHS-LSJC phrase is interaction between the opponent and yourself, how to act in relation to the opponent;

-When the opponent "advances" (loi) you "remain" (lau), i.e. make use of angling and such to keep the pressure forward but don't retreat taking pressure away.
-When the opponent "retreats" (heui) you "see them off" (sung), i.e. you advance keeping the pressure on them.
-When the opponent's "arm is removed" (lat-sau) you "rush straight" (jik-chung), i.e. you strike forward to their center.

LLHS is all about that constant forward energy.
LSJC is an effect of that energy when met with and once breaking obstruction.

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Nice description :)

+1.

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Originally Posted by LFJ

I know what you mean when others only focus on this "springy energy" effect once contact is made, and even seek to make contact so they can use it as some sort of sensitivity trick but neglect constant forward energy as a general principle. They are misguided, but from my viewpoint you're confusing LSJC with LLHS. What I mean:

The way I understand the LLHS-LSJC phrase is interaction between the opponent and yourself, how to act in relation to the opponent;

-When the opponent "advances" (loi) you "remain" (lau), i.e. make use of angling and such to keep the pressure forward but don't retreat taking pressure away.
-When the opponent "retreats" (heui) you "see them off" (sung), i.e. you advance keeping the pressure on them.
-When the opponent's "arm is removed" (lat-sau) you "rush straight" (jik-chung), i.e. you strike forward to their center.

LLHS is all about that constant forward energy.
LSJC is an effect of that energy when met with and once breaking obstruction.

I see you interpreting LSJC as LLHS, i.e. constant forward energy moving the whole structure as one unit. As a result, you replace LSJC with LLHS and deny the "springy energy" effect.

Well, what happens when contact is made with that sort of forward energy and is then suddenly lost, either by means of you removing the obstacle or the opponent taking their arm away? Do you not automatically "thrust forward without hesitation"? That is the LSJC part. If you aren't getting that effect, then something is wrong with your LLHS/forward energy. That's why it appears first in the phrase.

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If contact is made during your forward assault it is minimal. Most of the time only milliseconds. Chi Sau teaches us to continue not stick. We do not block or look to physically move limbs aside but rather use one arm for two purposes so two arms become 4 attacking and protecting entitiies. The correct punching strategy and the use of your bongs, paks, jut etc (should you need them) continue towards the opponent unless of course you are stopped in you tracks when evasive measures need to be taken.

In training we always attack forward (LSJC) so it becomes part of us. In a real fight things may not be so easy and we have to be aware of danger either presented by the attacker or from our own mistakes. LSJC is a concept of developing power using the whole body. Chi Sau builds the structure and Gor Sau uses the structure. There is no time for arm fighting.

In sparring I don't want my attacker to impede me so I will never make contact with his arms unless they hit mine during the punch in which case my elbow should deal with the problem. No elbow and you are left with what you usually see in Wing Chun schools. They use one arm to block and the other to punch. Tan Da is a prime example of this nonsense.