Taijiquan's health (or longevity) benefits overrated?

Ok, My Grand Mother lived a HARD working life raiseing 3 sons 1 natural daughter and 1 step daughter from my Grand Fathers late wife. She ate a typical Italian diet consisting of many fruits and Veggies her whole life, avoided doctors almost till her death. She worked when duty called, rested when she was tired, and enjoyed the company of her family untill stricken with Altzimers. She NEVER execised, and infact despised it. She veiwed it as "Un cultured" and infact encouraged her children to persue more "Scholarly" activitys, My one uncle ended up working on the space shuttle. I think he designed some sort of adhesive used in the heat shields or something.

She died AT THE AGE OF NINETY SIX!!!

My Grand father smoked like a Chimney, died young, mid 60's.

My uncle, rasied in the US, has had heart problems since he was 40. He grew up on fast food burgers and lives working a desk job researching and expanding his "mind"(education).

My mom, same thing, only it was colon cancer.

My other uncle, Liver problems, it almost killed him. He drank like a fish.

My oldest uncle, other than being over wieght, is healty as a horse. He does not work as hard as my Grand MA, but eats like she did, and enjoyes the company of family the same way.

My step Aunt, same thing. Healthy as a horse, out lives my Grand Father by more than a decade (He smoked like a Chimney). She also eats a traditional fruit and veggie Italian diet. Doc reacently said she'd bury us all.

Where did the Ice Cream come in? My Grand Parents ran an Italian Ice Cream store in Chicago. They worked it untill the neiborhood went bad, then they retired and enjoyed life.

In conclusion, those members of my family that avoid drinking, smoking and american food, and took it easy when they could and worked hard only when nessasary, live long and healthy, those that follow American health and eating customs got miserably SICK and/or died early.

If you ask me, forget Taji, and get involved with traditional Italian Food, especially Italian Ice Cream!!!!

Royal Dragon

Ps, for those seeking the secret to long life, I have my Grand Fathers secret Ice Cream float recipy!!!! It'l Co YA, but worth it!!!


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http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

nexus - and this is just a shot in the dark here, but what if in addition to opening up your meridian blockages, you're also exhausting your supply of jing (qi) thru excessive training and fa-jings, etc?

In other words, it's like by clearing your pipes and increasing your flow and usage of water, you're also draining the water tower faster...?

Royal Dragon - Amen on the ice cream - I'll be ****ed but I almost have to say that's one vice worth shaving a few years off my life for!

My grandfather practices Tai Chi, yet he smokes.

He is in his late 90s and is still doing good.

I'm guessing that health doesn't have to do with longevity. Probably depends on fate.

-------------------------
What is a tree without it's roots? What is a martial art without its basics?

Also I'd like to point out two major issues.

1. I like what parcticing Taiji does for me *right now*. I like the way it makes me feel. It is part of the reason that I maintained lung capacity thoughout my bone-marrow transplant and has been an activity I love during my recovery (when I am not pushing myself out of frustration for endurance lost).

2. Taiji, and most similar activity, helps promote coordination, balance, circulation, muscle and bone density. This is pretty importnant in old age where many people's bones become brittle, their muscular padding disappears and their balance fails (borken hip anyone).

Origenx

Proper flow of Qi means your internal organs work in unison. And hence your body is healthier. By opening up the meridians, the Jing doesn flow out. If anything, a Qi Gung practioner is able to hold the 'Jing' once he/she is excels in it.

With regards to life spans, some yogins believe that one breaths less frequently and hence prolongs life. Although other factors such a kammic forces etc govern life span too.Definintely, the mind is less 'monkey' when one breathes calmly...

Medicine Buddha
om namo bhagawate bekandzyai - guru bendurya prabha randzaya - tatagataya - arhate - samyaksam buddhaya - tayata om bhekandzyai bhekandzyai - maha bhekandzyai bhekandzyai -randza samungate soha

prana - yes, but what about when u "fajing" - aren't u potentially drawing from your reserves of qi and projecting it outward? Or even any simple physical movement theoretically uses qi, right? I mean, the more you drive your car, the faster you run out of gas?

Maybe the question is, are you drawing or replenishing the qi from the environment, or from your own reserves? And if you inadvertantly draw from your own reserves, might you be then depleting your batteries and thus shortening your "battery-life"? Or is there even such a distinction? Just asking questions here...

Origenx. Are you arguing for the sake of arguing? You could argue that all day, that fa-jing drains your energy etc etc. Doesn't mean anything, and considering taijiquan masters are some of the most energetic people you will ever meet it seems to be a rather empty concept. Beyond that, it has no direct correlation with when you die, I mean, there are americans who have sex 2,3,4,5 times a day and still live long lives. They are using much more energy in a given day then someone executing fa-jing movements. The reason of standing post is to build up qi so that one has the energy stored for such.

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

origenx

I havent done much fighting, and as far as using the technique called 'fajing' I am not sure what is involved, I suspect it is not a projection of Jing itself, but winds. Perhaps I shant comment on this subject since I do not know what 'fajing' really involves.

However it may be noteworthy that internal winds, are sufficient in most laypersons only to survive, think, make, live etc. It is like many of us, we spend before we have enough saved... :)
However a Tai-Chi practisioner seems to cultivate from the environment, the sun, whatever, much like filling the bank and reducing spending on unneeded objects (mindless chattering, busying).

So spending some money in his reserves, so long as he is wise, will still have some excess.... unlike lay persons. We usualyl spend until we have none, only to cultivate more by eating, resting etc...

hahaha that is gotta be the lousiest, most wrathful explaination ever. But I hope you can see wot I am getting at.

"Either your two side channels are open, and your central channel closed, or
your central channel open, and your two side channels closed.
These are the only alternatives..."
Lama Yeshe quoting Lama Tsongkhapa

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> . One might say that is the quality of Jing which determines whether or not genetic deformities take place in the body. Thus rendering Jing as the original foundational source of health in the body, possibly? [/quote]

You might say this is true of some genetic defects like diabetes. There is a 40% penetrance as they say. Meaning that among identical twins (people with identical DNA) 40% have diabetes and 60% don't. However, for some diseases the penetrance is 100%. You will get the disease and it is highly heritable. I happen to work with one such disease called Ataxia Teleangiectsasia. If you inherit 2 bad copies, your fu(ked. There's no hocus pocus in that.

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

taijiquan is an excellent way to re-balance the energy in your body. it builds energy and strengthens the dan tian, as well. this is the health benefit. this is internal development at the physical level.

the people that are being talked about should not be talked about. just because their taiji was good, does that mean that they can live any sort of lifestyle they want to and expect to be very old? it's silly to think that way. for a daoist, however, who seeks to reach immortality, taijiquan can be seen as a supplementary exercise for balancing out yin and yang in the body.

zhang san-feng lived to be much older than any other famous taijiquan practitioners. do you know what made zhang live to be so much older than any other taijiquan practitioners, though? he was a daoist. he followed the dao, and used taijiquan to aid him in his path. taijiquan was not his path, however. it was only an aid. this is why practicing an aid to a path will not extend your lifespan beyond a normal person's, in most cases. zhang's body was not from this world. he was, and is, an immortal.

on the physical level, though, taijiquan will make us healthy. this is not to say that you will live for a long time, though.

as for the genetics, and modern science, i thought that we were above all that. "modern" physical science is primitive, at best. doctors in the u.s. have no idea about energy. this is pitiful. energy is the building blocks of our universe, and they don't know anything about it, except that it is "spontaneous." we can send a man to the moon, but we can't understand what the chinese have for thousands of years.

in china, they have been doing experiments with qi using western science since the 1970's. they have been successful, with the energy being mostly identifiable as different types of electromagnetic energy. people have been treated of fatal conditions all over the world, and many incredible feats have been presented. even now, doctors still know nothing about energy. it's such a pitiful, ignorant condition that it's embarassing.

sorry about the rant. :(

Not to be rude, because I agree with you about the lifestyle thing, but Zhang San Feng has no (proven) connection to taijiquan what-so-ever. His tomb just calls him a Daoist immortal, and says nothing about taijiquan. Chen Wang Ting developed Taiji, and at least 1/3 of the original chen style postures come directly from General Qi Ji Guan's manual on martial arts.
Taiji IS a path--that of a martial art. Taiji is not "daoist practice", per se, just influenced by some general philosophical concepts(Yin/Yang, for instance).

Taiji allows you to link mind-body where many spiritual paths are centered on the mind. What many fail to see in the spiritual ideas is in order to relax, one must be physically and spiritually centered. Even the buddha I believe said, "relax into your being" hence saying settle into your center (dan tien) not your forhead (mind).

Taiji allows you to know yourself in terms of the body and in some aspects the mind and in knowing yourself you are following a path of sorts. There is no "Daoist" or "Zen", those are just pointers to help you go in the right direction, the discovery is of course in your understandings.

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

"Chen Wang Ting developed Taiji, and at least 1/3 of the original chen style postures come directly from General Qi Ji Guan's manual on martial arts."

Let's not forget the influance of Tai Tzu Quan, Hong Quan and the Cannon Fist style on Chen Taji. To say Chen Zhan Feng had no influance is a bit arrogant. It could be said he "Likely" had no influance, but to claim an absoulute is wrong.

We have documentation (I belive) showing the connection between Chen Wang Ting and Qi Jiquang, right? Every one tells this story. But how do you know Chen Zhan Feng's teachings were NOT involved also? Qi Jiquang is said to have been a Tai Tzu practitioner, and included our 32 moves in his book "Summary of Boxing" (also known by several other similar names).

I have also heard he TRAINED Chen Wang Ting in the Tai Tzu system. Tai TZu has an internal division based in partial training our founder had from Chen Po, founder of Li Hu, Ba Fa. I also once found a source (internet) stateing Chen Zhan Feng was a 4th generation desciple of Chen Po's teachings. The Chao family apparently had ties with Chen Po's desciples on down tha ages as well.

I think it is interesting that both Chao, Kuang Yin AND Chen Zhan Feng were students of Chen Po's teachings, and BOTH were said to have created systems used in the foundation of Chen style Taji.

I know I'm getting a bit off topic here, but that has me thinking Chen Po IS the real founder of Taji Quan. What does every one else think?

RD


Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

Royal Dragon:

Your points are interesting and I agree with most of what you say. However, it is necessary to differentiate between speculation and evidence supporting a position.

There very well may be a connection between taiji and Chang San-feng but the burden of proof lies with those making the assertion and you can see where that goes by taking a look at the discussions on the board.

A recent article in the Tai Chi Magazine tried to make that connection again but there doesn't seem to any verifiable documentation other than speculation and hypothesis.

I whole heartidly agree with the connection of Tai Tzu Chuan and Chen taijiquan however, others go as far as to question the relationship of Chen taijiquan to Yang taijiquan. Some even say Chen's taijiquan isn't even taiji (of course IMHO I disagree).

What a historical mess? Heh?

you need to remember every one smoked opium and the cleanis of the food may have not been good tai chi doesnt stop the effects of bad food and bad lungs from smoking. now remember yang cheng fu was a heavy drinker. but dont forget wutunan he died at 107!! he taught jet li at 99 years old tell he was 107 thats pretty amazing. my teahcers teacher is 90 years old and is quick and limber as any 30 year old. he still has a class and still teaches at that age. today are water is cleaner and we now more about nutrition and so it is very possible that the food and nutrition may be better these days.