isnt it this thread is about history/mystery instead of MMA and MMA fighting?
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For those who really interested in the history. if one do enough research into it. the following is my view.
at the 1600 era,
1, Hung Mun is just an underground Ming army organization lead by Ming General in Taiwan.
2, Shao Lin is not the real lead, the lead is Ming army. In Ming dynasty, there is Monk Solder, and there are a few different Shao LIn or Monk solder camp located in China.
In Qing, the emperor is using Lama instead of the chinese Monk solder. up to the point of the boxer rebellion the Qing's Lama Solder is burning the church of the westerners...etc. One could read about the Monk solder and the Lama's in Late Chan patriach Ven Hsu Yun's lecture note.
3, Shao lin is just an image the Hung Mun or the underground Ming army use to get symphaty or motivate the chinese people. The Shao lin monks disagree with it. Thus, there is a book called the secret martial art of Shao lin which clarify the non involvement of Shao lin because real Shao Lin is practicing Buddhism.
Thus, the so called invention of Shao lin WCK in that era doesnt make sense. Because the real guy who run the show is ex Ming Military. and these people already has their weapons which is the White Crane of Fujian. There is no need for WCK.
at 1700 era the SLT is created from an advance level Buddhist of Emei Goldern Peak combining the Buddhist internal technology with the White Crane of fujian concept.
The reason of creation unknown, however, it is not for mass production or activity that is clear. That is because SLT in order to get to advance level needs years of cultivation into silence and Qi. it is not a military type of art.
The reason I brought the Emei art and all these up for past decade because I am hoping someone in the future look into this direction. In this direction there are lots of indepth information which will contribute to one's liberation instead of a fight fight bang bang mentality. Emei technology is capable of transforming and transcending a person with its 9 level of attainment which as realized and practice by the founder. The scope is beyond martial art but fusing martial art and live into one piece and return the piece into the nature. That is true liberation which expand one's mind and body or transform a pupa to a butterfly.
that indepth mind/body/Qi technology seed in SLT is the ticket for WCK to evolve in the future un exhausted when the general TCMA part dry out. That is the live of SLT. without it SLT is just a dry form with limited meaning and power.
Missing this point will be shut oneself into a narrow dead prison.
I often qoute the following song when I wrote of SLT because what I am expressing is in the lyrics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibuYz2muVw0&feature=fvw
yes it is a final fantasy because when one walk out of the realm of thought life become the final fantasy. Perhaps that is what the story Miu Shun the creator trying to tell. it is beyond and much much bigger then fighting because it deal with life at every instant.
at 1850,
When the Opera actors start the uprising.
1, Shao LIn means the uprising people which basically the Hung Mun members. Some of them support their own localized group and some of them support the Taiping.
These are no longer ex Ming military supported but a large organization. From Canton to Fujian to Shang hai....etc.
2, WCK is just the art of the opera people. WCK divided into the art which using one long SLT form as core and other art such as Weng Chun today which has different southern TCMA such as CLF and Hung gar as core.
3, Lee Man-Mau is the lead at this time for all the opera people. There is no other one else for lead. Yik Kam is a member under Lee Man-Mau and a Hung Mun member as his salutation could be tracked to that era.
There is nothing mysterious but everything is pretty clear to me. IMHO. You can agree or not agree with me. I am here to share what I view.
Hendrik, you still refuse to answer questions and call what nonsense you spew out as "history" and "fact".Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric_H
The "fact" is that you haven't answered one logical question about these "facts" and go on rants about ISBNs because they provide a higher level of credibility than endlessly posting stupid songs from the 1970's.
The "fact" is that Yik Kam was a small, girlish, weak man who played the females on the red boat plays. This is probably why you cling to it so much Hendrik, it gives you hope for your small, weak, girlish frame. This snake-slidey-history-mystery-argument has gone on to long - Yik Kam was WWB's b!tch, end of story :D
((You really should write it up for a journal- with editorial help--for a more civil discussion than what is possible here because of the nature of net conversations.
To me there are diferrent things that need to be sorted out piece by piece- the red boat history, fukien to emei-
synthesis, you version of wc, shaolin buddhist non violent monks v Lama and the use of shaolin as a rallying cry only... too many things are jammed together in forum posts.))
PS For what it's worth---an opinion--- whatever the distant past history--it's the imprint of leung Jan and Ip man that has really shaped contemporary good wing chun. beyond Leung Jan and his immediate teachers- it gets pretty speculative))
joy chaudhuri
I agree with Joy on both of his points! I've been hoping for a long time that you would get with someone that is good at written English (like Rene or Robert maybe?), organize your research/theories, and publish it in some kind of more permanent format than an internet forum. I also have to agree with the previous poster that said that publishing your ideas gives them more credibility. Having something out there in print gives others a chance to closely exam your research and ideas and to respond appropriately. This is much better then internet forum debates and arguments. You've done a lot of work in this area and you should get credit and recognition for it. Arguing with people in an internet forum is not the appropriate venue for that.
KPM, Joy,
Thanks!
We all get rush into our life and didnt get the time to do it.
Now with Theo could write more about the six directional force...etc to share, I am very please. and hope that you all understand me better. as for the Shock power or inch jin, as my post in the how to increase power thread, in internal TCMA such as Baji or Chen taiji... there are atleast 3 different types of momentum generation happen in the same time, thus it is complex stuffs, all of these could be anylize clearly because one needs a clear process to synthesis it. but writting it down in english is big job.
If you have anything concern the above you would like to ask me, go a head, I will take time to answer.
Merry Xmas.
-----OK. I'll take a shot. I've tried to follow Hendrik's ideas on the history, but I'm sure I don't remember the details!
Erik wrote:
In the Yik Kam story here are the disputed items:
1. Wong Wa Bo wing chun existed at the same time and is a different format.
---And? So what? The Opera troupes were very "fluid" and "flexible." Why is it hard to believe that a group working together to formulate ideas and methods for a new fighting method might choose to practice what they come up with in different formats? I don't think WCK was the invention of any one person or one specific time. I think it developed over a period of time with contributions from several people. As it was developing, the people involved wouldn't necessarily do things in EXACTLY the same way. But from your comment further down, I take it that you agree with this. I don't recall that Hendrik ever DISAGREED with this idea. But I could be wrong! :eek:
2. Other Wing Chun doesn't have the snake+crane "signature" that Yik Kam's does.
---Again....so what? But Snake & Crane is not unique to Yik Kam WCK. Its possible that Yik Kam did his own research and chose to develop the emphasis more than his contemporaries and thus has more of a "signature", but all WCK has some Snake & Crane element to it from what I've seen. Do you have a Bong Sau and Fak Sau?.....Crane element. Do you have a Biu Ji?.....Snake element.
3. Other Wing Chun has SNT/CK/BJ forms and weapons, Yik Kam's does not.
---I've never seen Yik Kam WCK. But from what I've read, its one long form appears to be a combination of SNT/CK/BJ....or at least has all the elements that those three do. Yik Kam WCK is NOT just the SLT form that we know from Yip Man WCK. Yik Kam WCK would represent the red boat material taught in one long continuous exercise. Wong Wah Bo's WCK may have been the red boat material teaching the same thing in three shorter continuous exercises. The Ku Lo San Sik may be the red boat material taught as the individual techniques and concepts without putting them into a continuous exercise. But they are all three likely still the red boat WCK material.
4. Yik Kam has been reported to have studied arts additional to WCK and imported pieces of those arts into something he called "Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao" - Yik Kam's Drilling Method.
---Again...SO WHAT? Chan Wah Shun or his son did the same thing. Sum Nung did the same thing.
To me, this raises two questions: Why would Yik Kam call his art something other than Wing Chun unless he felt it significantly different to the WCK he had learned?
---Why did Yuen Kay Shan or his followers choose to call their WCK something "different?" Why did Sum Nung or his followers then choose to call their WCK something different? Maybe because Yuen Kay Shan felt it was significantly different that what he learned from either Dai Fai Min Kam or Fok Bo Chuen? Maybe because Sum Nung felt it was signfiicantly different from what he learned from Yuen Kay Shan? Again...SO WHAT? It was still WCK!
And, why is it so unbelievable that a member of the red boats (martial arts melting pot) would combine several arts together?
----Maybe I missed something. But I don't find it unbelievable at all. But Hendrik has never claimed that Yik Kam WCK was any kind of "original" WCK. I don't recall him ever saying that he didn't believe that the members of the red boats combined multiple things together. After all, he himself postulates that WCK is essentially the combination of Fujian White Crane and Emei Snake.
---So bottom line....I don't see any problems with the "Yik Kam story." At least not in the points that you bring up. I don't mean to put words in Hendrik's mouth, but I did want to see your points addressed. Maybe Hendrik will correct me if I am wrong.
Thanks Keith,
As for the long form, YK WCK is not alone as in the following
http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/show...47&postcount=8Quote:
In our passed down writings it is said Leung Yee Tai taught from shorter San Sik and Wong Wah Bo taught from one long form. Leung Jan learned from both. He worked with Wong Wah Bo to combine the teachings of his two Sifu. This resulted in the 3 forms as practiced today.
as for the snake technology, from BJ to structure braking to inch Jin.... lot so things in WCK rely in those type of technology. One can call it any name one likes but it got to be there to do the job.
hendrik, everytime someone who disagrees with your views. you have an emotional issue. you would start attacking other people's teachers and lineages instead of giving any answers to back up your rediculous claim such as 'wing chun came from o-mei and crane.' your actions speak louder than your words. you like to instigate and force your views on others, but you have no intentions to discuess or debate with anyone.
you preach mo duk to cover up your hypocritical behavior. you totally ignore peoples' questions and are only capable of a one sided speech. listening to your mo duk is like listening to tammie faye and jim baker preaching bible, total nonsense. if you said yik kam slt came from o-mei and crane instead of wing chun came from o-mei and crane, i don't think anyone would disagree with you. but wing chun is wing chun, o-mei is omei, ngo cho kun is ngo cho kun. that is a fact. your o-mei is a fantasy nothing more.
The Wing Chun legends and myths say that Ng Mui developed WCK after watching a fight between a snake and a crane. Why is it so hard to believe that this is a metaphor referring to the original foundation of WCK? To me, the story seems likely to be a "mythologizing" of the idea that the original developers of WCK combined major elements from a snake style and a crane style. Have you ever seen Fujian White Crane? There are so many similarities to WCK that it would be hard to argue against some kind of connection between the two arts! I've never seen Omei Snake, but evidently Hendrik has and he sees a connection to WCK there as well. So what is the issue with what Hendrik has said?
The one thing that Hendrik has done that has ticked a lot of people off is to say that WCK did NOT come from the Shaolin Temple. The reason this ticked people off has more to do with emotional responses than logical reasoning. But I think the evidence supports what he says. I guess a lot of WCK people like that nostalgic idea that their ancestors were once enlightened Shaolin Monks. :rolleyes:
For Emei Connection,
Jim of Koolo who is connected to Koolo and senior FungChun; and Russell have both visited the gate keeper of Emei to find out what is the possibility of Emei connection
The following article is a part of the result. Take a look.
http://www.w1ng.com/mystery-of-the-s...ei-connection/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKASkDfmV9g
Quote:
The one thing that Hendrik has done that has ticked a lot of people off is to say that WCK did NOT come from the Shaolin Temple. The reason this ticked people off has more to do with emotional responses than logical reasoning. But I think the evidence supports what he says. I guess a lot of WCK people like that nostalgic idea that their ancestors were once enlightened Shaolin Monks. :rolleyes:
By any standard, The person Miu Shun who create SLT is a highly cultivate in energy/spiritual realm. As we know Emei 12 zhuang could only be passed to one single person per generation in the Emei Ling Chi lineage of Buddhism before 1900. and with Miu Shun knows the emei 12 zhuang means he must be some body and very likely the head of the Emei ling chi lineage in 1700; who use the Miu Shun nick name so that his leaking of emei 12 zhuang into SLT without get caught in his time. eventhough the signature he left in SLT trace back to emei ling chi hundreds of years later.
This lineage actually fuse the Daoism and Buddism together. What happen is the founder White Cloud of Emei is a Daoist who practices the internal alchemy and later liberated by Buddhist sage, that transcent and transform him, after his attainment of the advance state, he founded this lineage, develop the Emei 12 Zhuang, and then write a cannon called the Lotus which contain internal training from Medicine, Healing, to ......etc Now is kept in the Beijing Museum China.
I am proud of being a WCner and has learn the Long Form of SLT. Because I know my Ancestors is indeed a some body in the Chinese internal art world. Such as the Taiji people like to Link themself to Chang San Feng the Daoist. If Chang San Feng represent Taiji Wu Dang MA then White Cloud representing Emei.
SLT link itself to White Cloud of Emei, one of the top cultivator and the author of Lotus Cannon in Beijing Museum. SLT is analogy to a piece of art by Leonardo Davinci. That is the Pride of WCK. it is like having a Ferarri. Many will love to dream to have this SLT type of art and connection. one could have all the internal technology to be access without have to steal from taiji or other internal art which is unrelated to WCK.
As for the Shao Lin monk, Ip Chun is the one who brought Cheong Ng the creator of Red Boat, Some others Brought up Yat Chun.....ect
See, all these are great, however, none of these so called shao lin monk has a martial art signature which is traceable. No one knows what type of martial art they practice, No one knows which shao lin they comes from to trace if indeed WCK type of signature could be found in the shao lin they comes from as mother art......
But, Emei, we know it is clear that the manual of WCK Biu Jee be it in the Set of SLT, CK, or BJ, or the Long SLT, that contain the snake signature, and that snake signature could be traced to Emei 12 Zhuang and Emei 12 Zhuang is the creation of White Cloud of Emei.
So, the bottom line is, the snake signature in TCMA is there and could be traced, the founder is legitimate could be tracked down from different history of China. These are real deal.
IMHO, I rather accept a real traceable and tracked able story then some ever changing fiction or taking different art as the source of SLT ;where today is from Cheung Ng, Tomorrow is from Chi Sim, the day after tomorrow is from Weng Chun hall, The day after tomorrow tomorrow is from Yat Chan. ... So what they create? with what? when ? where? how? no answer but name dropping. and if one check into the So called Weng Chun hall lineage, one could find the core based is CLF and Hung gar signature, not SLT based type of art and that is a fact.
And with the knowledge of the snake technology of Emei, I know and any one knows that it open up the body accord to the SLT practice. Or another words, if open up a wider paradigm for one, or put it in a simple term it makes your practice alive. Ask those who has experience using the snake technology and see if they regret or their SLT or other sets practice will never go back similar to after one a person get rich they dont want to go poor and passed the point of no return.
The following is what Theo said in other post on the snake enginee..
Quote:
Thus in the SLT, there is no such thing as only the arm moving during the punch or any other motion as the entire body is moving. The momentum generated in each motion then is also recycled and reused so that one does not have to start and stop or get stuck at some instant.
now in order to feel the Awareness over the entire body, one needs to be able to open or activate the physical body to allow the sensing and awareness ability to extend throughout the body. just being physically loose and relaxed will not cause one to be aware of the 6D because you also need the silence. so the snake engine gives one the ability to handle the 6D at a very fine granularity, from the fingertip to the toes. one needs both 6D and the snake engine in order to handle momentum dynamically at any instant at any kind of contact. without the snake engine, one cannot handle all the detail down to the smallest level. without the 6D, one cannot know how to handle the momentum.
so the 6D gives one the knowledge of how to handle the momentum and the snake engine gives one the tools to handle it down to the small details. thus when the sets are performed this way, one becomes aware of the details of the momentum in each motion and how the entire body is involved. this will cause movement or momentum in the body thus making it alive.
Thus, in a conclusion, Emei connection is a link which is based on evidence and technology that fix naturally into SLT without any modification or explanation needed. Some might choose to believe and some not, that is totally fine with me for I am just to share the information and the benifit one could have using the snake technology.
for those who believe otherwise, my suggestion is for them to find a traceable and trackable evidence to present to WCners. there is no point to get emotional because at the end of the day it is a matter of could what you believe set you free.
For me, the Emei connection has set me and many free --- no one fuzziness when practice SLT sets and be able to make the SLT alive and flow... it is all about clarity in practice SLT like found an operating manual.
It is not about myth or promoting of a lineage or marketing. It is all about finding the right key so the Ferarri could be started and drive out of the museum for only then one really own it.
Do you own your SLT and it flows naturally with awareness and tranquil like music, or it is always " sifu says this has to do this way, that has to do that way, oh, should this be higher, lower..... how to power these.. what the heck is this means...?" those type of wasting time struggling instead of practicing.
if you struggle then I invite you to try the snake engine, you might love it.
Yes, but you seem oblivious to the connection between MAs and fighting! LOL!
My point is that your "DNA" isn't passed on via lineage only (from person to person or art to art) -- the "DNA" relates to FUNCTION, to doing something in fighting -- if not, then it is complete bullsh1t (and many TMAs are nothing but bullsh1t).
I used judo, SJ, and cornish wrestling to illustrate that. Here you have three different MAs that share the same "DNA" but aren't connected (historically). How is that possible? It is because they are all doing jacket grappling, and in doing that, in finding what works in that method of fighting, they find that the same tools, mechanics, strategies, etc. work. This is because what does work is limited.
So, if you take several TCMAs and have them all try to use a similar method -- let's say controlling while striking the opponent -- guess what? They will develop a similar DNA.
An interesting read which does shed light to some of my question Hendrik so thanks for posting.
What still intrigues me is that I have learnt and talked with my Sifu many similar subjects, as you have seen from some of my other posts, without being a part of the Yik Kam or Emei tradition.
I also still get the feeling that Grandmaster Fu Wei Zhong (again a Mandarin name!) was probably curious himself to see similarities with his Emei and the Wing Chun he saw, so it would be even more interesting for him to see some of the heigung sets I have seen in the Lee Shing family!
And like I said, if they work just as well and have no influence from Yik Kam, then what exactly did Lee Shing know? Is it not possible that these internal stuffs existed in other families and still do today?
Something to contemplate over the holidays...
Do you know I go to church and pray to Chris and loving Santa with all my Zen practice?
hahaha you dont know me.
I dont have a theory but whatever I do if I decide to do it, I will do it fully, loving it deeply to complete it , and release it to set myself free.
As for the history of China, it is what it is, I love it or not, it is what it is. and sharing that is not too in love but similar to sharing the earth is round.
Keith,
Thank you for giving actual responses instead of going off and crying about Mou Duk or trying to get the thread deleted. While I don't quite agree with everything you've written you seem like you actually want to discuss. That alone puts you leagues above crybaby Hendrik.
I see what you are saying, but i don't see those tools as necessarily crane or snake driven specifically as ties to O-mei. We also have an "Eagle" bong sao - that doesn't mean that Wing Chun comes from Eagle Claw Kung Fu too.
Just because we CAN use the terms snake+crane it doesn't mean they relate exactly to the same snake + crane that Hendrik is talking about. There are many expressions of those two animals in different CMA. I wouldn't say the snake system Bagua I have learned in the past has anything in common with Wing Chun.
Theres nothing wrong with what you've written except if WWB wing chun which did contain SNT/CK/BJ Dummy+Weapons existed at the same time (which as accurately as can be traced it did). The key point is in WHY the difference existed and WHY Yik Kam did not call his art Wing Chun!Quote:
3. Other Wing Chun has SNT/CK/BJ forms and weapons, Yik Kam's does not.
---I've never seen Yik Kam WCK. But from what I've read, its one long form appears to be a combination of SNT/CK/BJ....or at least has all the elements that those three do. Yik Kam WCK is NOT just the SLT form that we know from Yip Man WCK. Yik Kam WCK would represent the red boat material taught in one long continuous exercise. Wong Wah Bo's WCK may have been the red boat material teaching the same thing in three shorter continuous exercises. The Ku Lo San Sik may be the red boat material taught as the individual techniques and concepts without putting them into a continuous exercise. But they are all three likely still the red boat WCK material.
If it was "Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao" then it contains what worked for yik kam- nothing else. That's why I say it might be good for Henrdik's smaller (girlish, lol) frame, Yik Kam was a small weaker guy.
Quote:
----Maybe I missed something. But I don't find it unbelievable at all. But Hendrik has never claimed that Yik Kam WCK was any kind of "original" WCK. I don't recall him ever saying that he didn't believe that the members of the red boats combined multiple things together. After all, he himself postulates that WCK is essentially the combination of Fujian White Crane and Emei Snake.
Hendrik has for years gone on about the true essence, the DNA of short jing and how crane and snake are the mother art, yadda yadda yadda ad nauseum. In that way he HAS made lots of claims to be the only one to know the original WC.
There are 10+ years of posts to back that up, though you'd have to look under all his fake screen names to gather them all (phenix, yelllowpikachu, etc). And when he gets proven wrong he cries and "retires" from the forum only to pop back up like a bad rash 6 months later.
Honestly, if the guy showed an ounce of humility and only spoke for the Yik Kam branch, there'd never be an argument.
Too bad, Snake and Crane signature shows up in YKS, Koo Lo, Ip Man, and other Lineages of WCK.
No one needs to speak for any banch but reveal the existance of the evidence in all legitimate WCK lineages which cannot be deny.
If your WCK is not among the above, that is your problem not others.
Let's say that you are correct, that this "signature" appears in these lineages/branches of WCK. What does that mean?
You seem to argue that it is proof that WCK comes from a fusion of Emei and White Crane.
My point is that this "signature" may just be mechanics that pertains to doing certain things (and you need to use those specific mechanics to do it), that since all these branches are doing those things, that it is only natural they would develop similar mechanics or signature. Just like SJ, judo, and Cornish wrestling share the same "signature" but have no historical connection.
Hi Erik!
Thank you for giving actual responses instead of going off and crying about Mou Duk or trying to get the thread deleted. While I don't quite agree with everything you've written you seem like you actually want to discuss.
---Yes. I get very frustrated with people who come to the forum, and then won't actually respond to questions they don't like and won't actually "discuss" a topic.
I see what you are saying, but i don't see those tools as necessarily crane or snake driven specifically as ties to O-mei. We also have an "Eagle" bong sao - that doesn't mean that Wing Chun comes from Eagle Claw Kung Fu too.
---I take the evidence of specific motions and techniques found in WCK in combination with the original "snake/crane" origination myth. If you have techniques and methods that can be recognizably classified as "snake-like" as well as others that are clearly "crane-like"....in combination with a very commonly repeated mythic story about WCK coming from watching a snake and crane in battle, then it doesn't take a huge leap of logic or faith to postulate that WCK was originally developed from the combination of a "snake-like" art and a "crane-like" art. I believe its called using "Occam's Razor." The simplest and most rational explanation is usually the best. :)
Just because we CAN use the terms snake+crane it doesn't mean they relate exactly to the same snake + crane that Hendrik is talking about. There are many expressions of those two animals in different CMA. I wouldn't say the snake system Bagua I have learned in the past has anything in common with Wing Chun.
----Another point in my thesis is the witness of Fukien White Crane. Have you ever seen Fukien White Crane? As I said before, the similarities are many and just seem too much to be coincidence. Again, this strongly supports the "crane" part of the origination theory. Hendrik says the same about Emei Snake. I've never seen Emei Snake, but I'm willing to take his word for it. There are so many similarities between White Crane and WCK, that it isn't at all hard for me to believe that WCK started as White Crane but then evolved as other elements were added....possibly some Snake elements? These may have been more subtle and less obvious than the Crane.
Theres nothing wrong with what you've written except if WWB wing chun which did contain SNT/CK/BJ Dummy+Weapons existed at the same time (which as accurately as can be traced it did). The key point is in WHY the difference existed and WHY Yik Kam did not call his art Wing Chun!
---Why did Leung Jan teach WCK as 3 sets in Foshan, but then as San Sik in Ku Lo Village? Who can really say? But it doesn't mean that he taught drastically different WCK in Foshan compared to Ku Lo. And just because WWB may have taught his WCK in a different format from Yik Kam doesn't mean that they were drastically different either.
If it was "Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao" then it contains what worked for yik kam- nothing else. That's why I say it might be good for Henrdik's smaller (girlish, lol) frame, Yik Kam was a small weaker guy.
----Does Yip Man's SLT contain only what works for him? Does Yuen Kay Shan's SLT contain only what works for him? Just because Yik Kam's name got attached to it means nothing. Why did he drop the "WCK" label and just call it "SLT"? Who can say? Maybe he thought it was a more accurate term since his version was one long form. But again, that doesn't mean it was drastically different from other people's WCK.
Hendrik has for years gone on about the true essence, the DNA of short jing and how crane and snake are the mother art, yadda yadda yadda ad nauseum. In that way he HAS made lots of claims to be the only one to know the original WC.
----Oh yeah! I've been around! I am very familiar with Hendrik's past posting habits. He has said that the mother art was a combination of crane and snake, but he never claimed that Yik Kam's art specifically was that "mother art." He may be guilty of believing that his version of WCK is the best out there....but then....aren't we all! ;)
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The snake and crane theme appears in the Ng Mui/Yim Wing Chun stories... not just in the Yik Kam history or tradition.As in many kung fu stories they are likely to be metaphors- meaningful within a group- perhaps less meaningful to people outside of a group.
Hendrik has a well known preference of suggesting and having people find out things further
on their own by working on it. When you combine that with what he calls his "Chinglish".. it causes
additional communication difficulties. However despite the combination of hinting and "Chinglish"
Hendrik has repeatedly given his views over time. On the whole he seems to have been more targeted -than is the case of his targeting individuals.
I don't always agree with him. Sometimes his suggestions are already embedded in some lineages other than his own.. using different words.At other times- I find him insightful at times... because he has seriously worked at dealing with Chinese martial language and history issues.
Many top flight instructors emphasize sort of learning by doing- rather than elaborate chatting
with whoever is around. Chat lists create their own realities.
Most of the KFO forums IMO do not include much discussion by first rate practitioners of their arts... and can confuse beginners in various arts.
On the other hand - are net forums really for communication? When things get slow in other forums- the wing chun forium noise goes up... net addiction at work!
joy chaudhuri
Your analogy is false. As I said, the same "signature" is found in SJ, in judo, and in Cornish wrestling, three separate arts with no common historical links. Using your analogy, how would this be possible?
The "signature" (DNA) that you talk about isn't someone's unique invention, but body mechanics, and to do certain specific tasks, we need to use certain specific mechanics. There is no way around it. If you want to throw someone with your hip, for instance, regardless of your art, you are going to end up using the same mechanics. You have to. There is no way around it. Give people the same or similar tasks, and they will come up -- independently -- with the same or similar way of doing it. The mechanics of a hip throw isn't like MAC OS X or the recipe for Coca Cola (some unique invention).
So, when I see a hip throw in an art, it doesn't follow that the art in question must be derived from judo or SJ or Cornish wrestling. It could have developed independently -- just as judo, SJ and Cornish wrestling did!
Keith,
You do make some good arguments, taking a closer look:
I see your point, but it ignores all the techniques in Wing Chun that are not snake or crane like. If I can say because it contains some stuff that contains snake or crane like movements it comes from crane and snake I can also say because there are pieces that do not have crane and snake movements it does not come from crane and snake. The pendulum swings both ways.Quote:
---I take the evidence of specific motions and techniques found in WCK in combination with the original "snake/crane" origination myth. If you have techniques and methods that can be recognizably classified as "snake-like" as well as others that are clearly "crane-like"....in combination with a very commonly repeated mythic story about WCK coming from watching a snake and crane in battle, then it doesn't take a huge leap of logic or faith to postulate that WCK was originally developed from the combination of a "snake-like" art and a "crane-like" art. I believe its called using "Occam's Razor." The simplest and most rational explanation is usually the best.
I've seen a few white crane systems, we have a tosian school here in town. As an example:Quote:
----Another point in my thesis is the witness of Fukien White Crane. Have you ever seen Fukien White Crane? As I said before, the similarities
are many and just seem too much to be coincidence. Again, this strongly supports the "crane" part of the origination theory. Hendrik says the same about
Emei Snake. I've never seen Emei Snake, but I'm willing to take his word for it. There are so many similarities between White Crane and WCK, that it
isn't at all hard for me to believe that WCK started as White Crane but then evolved as other elements were added....possibly some Snake elements?
These may have been more subtle and less obvious than the Crane.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkwdiPpxgCc
Honestly, it looks more like Weng Chun than Wing Chun. All southern CMAs share a common signature, but the specifics of WC (50/50 weight, centerline, etc) aren't in the others - white crane included.
We always have the TWC origin story as an explanation for Leung Jan's way of doing things. FWIW, I buy that he passed they WCK "system" on to a few and then gave the rest what they needed for fighting, this has been the way of Kung Fu teachers for hundreds of years.Quote:
---Why did Leung Jan teach WCK as 3 sets in Foshan, but then as San Sik in Ku Lo Village? Who can really say? But it doesn't mean that he taught
drastically different WCK in Foshan compared to Ku Lo. And just because WWB may have taught his WCK in a different format from Yik Kam doesn't
mean that they were drastically different either.
To go out on a limb here - I'd say yes. All the students of YM have different looking SNT. He gave them what they needed within the parameters of the WC system and customized to their body type etc. Who is to say he didn't get the same treatment from Chun Wa Shun and then learned the system part from Leung Bik?Quote:
----Does Yip Man's SLT contain only what works for him? Does Yuen Kay Shan's SLT contain only what works for him? Just because Yik Kam's
name got attached to it means nothing. Why did he drop the "WCK" label and just call it "SLT"? Who can say? Maybe he thought it was a more accurate
term since his version was one long form. But again, that doesn't mean it was drastically different from other people's WCK.
Yeah he has yet to outright say it, but basically here's how the Hendrik robot works:Quote:
----Oh yeah! I've been around! I am very familiar with Hendrik's past posting habits. He has said that the mother art was a combination of crane and snake,
but he never claimed that Yik Kam's art specifically was that "mother art." He may be guilty of believing that his version of WCK is the best out
there....but then....aren't we all!
1. Talk about some ridiculous DNA/microcasm/extra extrapolated theory
2. When challenged deflects to crane and snake being the origin and how he understands "legitimate WCK" and you don't.
3. Quote some song from the 1970s for no reason.
4. When disagreed with, provides no evidence and runs away from the conversation saying "thank you" or "ignores" you
5. Talks about people being attached or having issues if pressed further
6. When no arguments are left, delete the thread, go back to step 1.
For anyone that reads RSF: It makes me Tire.
Hey Eric!
I see your point, but it ignores all the techniques in Wing Chun that are not snake or crane like.
---WCK evolved from its roots and underwent changes. Heck....even Fukien White Crane has techniques that one could say don't look very "crane-like." That doesn't disprove the theory.
Honestly, it looks more like Weng Chun than Wing Chun. All southern CMAs share a common signature, but the specifics of WC (50/50 weight, centerline, etc) aren't in the others - white crane included.
---You need to check out Fukien White Crane....it does have 50/50 weight distro and a centerline theory!!! They even have Chi Sau, though of course not the "Luk Sao" version developed by Yuen Kay Shan and Yip Man.
We always have the TWC origin story as an explanation for Leung Jan's way of doing things.
----How does the TWC origin story have any bearing on what we are discussing?
To go out on a limb here - I'd say yes. All the students of YM have different looking SNT. He gave them what they needed within the parameters of the WC system and customized to their body type etc. Who is to say he didn't get the same treatment from Chun Wa Shun and then learned the system part from Leung Bik?
---And again....all of those people that learned SLT from Yip Man or from Yuen Kay Shan, even if some adaptations were made for them personally, are still recognized as doing WCK. The changes weren't drastic enough to declare it another art. Just because Yik Kam changed the name doesn't necessarily mean what he was doing was drastically different from the other WCK guys.
Yeah he has yet to outright say it, but basically here's how the Hendrik robot works:
----I can't argue with that! :) Fortunately he seems to be a little more forthcoming in his more recent posting than he was in the past. I do see an improvement!
I don't think it is a matter of various techniques have snake or crane-like movements but rather that the mechanics and tactics "unique" to Emai and White Crane have been adopted into WCK.
That I think is the major flaw in Hendrik's theory -- that these things are unique to ONLY White Crane and Emei.Quote:
I've seen a few white crane systems, we have a tosian school here in town. As an example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkwdiPpxgCc
Honestly, it looks more like Weng Chun than Wing Chun. All southern CMAs share a common signature, but the specifics of WC (50/50 weight, centerline, etc) aren't in the others - white crane included.
That story is complete nonsense (and Cheung took the story from tai ji!).Quote:
We always have the TWC origin story as an explanation for Leung Jan's way of doing things.
That may be a part of it. The other part is that what these people are teaching is only the curriculum of WCK. They don't teach you how to use it. You only learn to use it by using it. When Rene asked Sum Nung what that major difference was between today's practitioners and those of the past, Sum said, "In the past, they fought a lot." It was through fighting that they developed their skill and understanding of the art.Quote:
FWIW, I buy that he passed they WCK "system" on to a few and then gave the rest what they needed for fighting, this has been the way of Kung Fu teachers for hundreds of years.
No.Quote:
To go out on a limb here - I'd say yes. All the students of YM have different looking SNT. He gave them what they needed within the parameters of the WC system and customized to their body type etc. Who is to say he didn't get the same treatment from Chun Wa Shun and then learned the system part from Leung Bik?
LOL!Quote:
Yeah he has yet to outright say it, but basically here's how the Hendrik robot works:
1. Talk about some ridiculous DNA/microcasm/extra extrapolated theory
2. When challenged deflects to crane and snake being the origin and how he understands "legitimate WCK" and you don't.
3. Quote some song from the 1970s for no reason.
4. When disagreed with, provides no evidence and runs away from the conversation saying "thank you" or "ignores" you
5. Talks about people being attached or having issues if pressed further
6. When no arguments are left, delete the thread, go back to step 1.
For anyone that reads RSF: It makes me Tire.
---Sorry, I didn't actually watch your clip until after I replied.
I've seen a few white crane systems, we have a tosian school here in town. As an example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkwdiPpxgCc
---But Dude!!!! You don't see the WCK similarities in that clip??!! :confused: Squared-on facing, Tan Sau, Gan Sau, centerline structure, the foot work, etc.???
They even show Chi Sao! Sure, it also looks like Weng Chun, because it also shares similarities and attributes to WCK and may have had a similar root but different evolution. WCK has evolved! Imagine taking a Fukien White Crane foundation similar to what you see in that clip and allowing it to evolve and change as you figure out what works well and what doesn't under the pressure of being a fighting revolutionary on the red boats with a price on your head. Or imagine taking that Fukien White Crane foundation and training with someone that does a Snake style that is able to frustrate you. Maybe you'd start adapting and changing and even incorporating some things from that Snake style?
Similar to MAC OS if not from Apple computer.
Sure, find and propose where else one could find those type of technology in past 400 years of Chinese TCMA history.
Go a head, find it share the details of application uniqueness and power generation of such a style.
Until then, Thinking is cheap. I can think MAC OS is not unique too.
Keith,
Aye, but it doesn't prove it either ;)Quote:
---WCK evolved from its roots and underwent changes. Heck....even Fukien White Crane has techniques that one could say don't look very "crane-like."
That doesn't disprove the theory.
They do have centerline, but not in the same sense as WC. They give up their 50/50 weight for the signature crane stance. I'd argue that without a steady weight distrobution you can't have a good "self" centerline (part of the WC signature). Heck, Thai Boxing, SPM, Tai Chi and Bak mei all have 50/50 weight and centerline too, its in how you define and use centerline that makes the difference.Quote:
---You need to check out Fukien White Crane....it does have 50/50 weight distro and a centerline theory!!!
They even have Chi Sau, though of course not the "Luk Sao" version developed by Yuen Kay Shan and Yip Man.
IF White Crane was the origin, what was so deficient in it that they needed to make Wing Chun?
We were discussing the reason for changes in LJ's teaching, the TWC story points out a reason for changes in what Leung Jan did.Quote:
----How does the TWC origin story have any bearing on what we are discussing?
There's the rub though - Yik Kam included outside elements from O-mei. That's a fact. Once you as a teacher make a significant change like that its no longer WCK, for as much as I tend to poke fun, that's a credible kung fu guy thing to do - if you change it, take credit for it (and the lumps that come with it). That's how we end up with things like "Fu Style" "Yang Style" "Chu Sau Lei WC" (all of which are good systems) and beyond. If tomorrow I decided to combine 5 ancestor boxing or Baiji with Wing Chun would it still be wing chun? No, it'd be the combination of those elements and henceforth be known as Eric's kung fu style. I think Yik Kam was honorable enough (being a secret society member usually requires that) to say, "i made these changes per what i understand, this is my system."Quote:
---And again....all of those people that learned SLT from Yip Man or from Yuen Kay Shan, even if some adaptations were made for them personally,
are still recognized as doing WCK. The changes weren't drastic enough to declare it another art. Just because Yik Kam changed the name doesn't necessarily
mean what he was doing was drastically different from the other WCK guys.
At the end of the day though, we're arguing about what some Tranny might or might not have taught in China 200 years ago. Maybe we should find better uses for our time ;)
Keith,
No worries :)
And I'd agree there are possibilities that what White Crane does influences pieces of WCK or arts that became WCK. It is also possible that White Crane was the first "southern" art and thats where the connection ends. Or that there is no connection at all. But to say crane and snake directly made WCK? That's too much of a stretch for me. I'm more inclined to agree with Terrence (will wonders never cease?) that there are simply limited ways your body can do certain things, and if they work they'll pop up over and over again in different places.
The Key is in the differences, thats what needs to be rooted out. We can't do that by looking at the stuff that shows up in a large number of systems (like bong sao, tan sao, gan sao, they're in every southern CMA!)
If you want to have very good short power (to be able to generate much power from a short distance), how many ways -- different mechanics -- do you think you can use to do that?
If I ask you to throw a small ball as far as you can, what mechanics will you use? Do you think there are all kinds of ways of doing that? No. In fact, everyone if they take a bit of time practicing trying to do it will ALL develop the same basic mechanics.
That is what I am trying to point out: in performing tasks that require maximum potential (power, speed, etc.) is very limited in variation. In other words, given the same task, we will all over time develop the same ways of doing it because there is an optimal way of doing that task.
Your snake/crane ways of moving are just a way or describe something that is not unique but is common to performing a task.
For all the WCner who practice the sets " as it is."
if one take away the White Crane technology one takes away the center line.
if one take away the snake of emei technology, one's power will not get to the finger tips.
That is the reality and facts one is facing.
One can disagree with me and believe what one wants ,
but the above issues are what one needs to face and solve to get result in their sets practice.
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Differences in starting points pf POV - but I understand the above. ..both on the center line and
that biu jee is the last to finally develop.
Development and application is confused a lot... without proper development- a full understanding of application is not easy.
joy chaudhuri