Are We Reading the Same Text?: Part Two
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Back to the topic, it seems to me that your stuck on the thick heavy king author style of blades. What about the French Fencing sword? Tuff and flexible. The sword might have bent somewhat, but not much. In particular because of the type of form he was doing. The character of the set was one of slicing more so than chopping, and being that the Ba-Gua Da Dao’s purpose is slicing; it should be thin at the end.
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What is this "thick heavy king author style of blades"? Explain please. I am not "stuck" on "thick" blades. Please pay attention. I am and HAVE BEEN ADDRESSING real swords versus wushu blades. A REAL sword will have far more substance than a wushu imitation.
"What about the French Fencing sword? Tuff and flexible." Which era are you referring to? At any given point, you will notice that French swords are very different from Chinese swords. This comparison is off the topic and quite a stretch.
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I have a friend who knows the extremely rare Northern Wu Tai Chi style who is also a sword collector. This guy spends crazy money on antique swords and some of them from the 19th century were quite flexible. All he collects are Chinese swords. I don’t a lot about grading them, but I do know the difference between a fake and a real sword.
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Apparently, you do not know the difference between a fake sword and an authentic one. I cannot recommend www.swordforum.com enough. Just read through it at least.
Where does your friend buy his swords? Can you get him to post pictures of them here? What do you mean by "quite flexible"?
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(Traditional Chinese dao and jian had a little flex but not like a European long sword would or the "spring steel" offered with Chinese weapons.)
The Da Dao is not like the traditional broadsword, if it were, it would be too heavy to use.
Take a look at these pictures:
http://www.chikungintl.com/images/DaoCompare.jpg
http://www.chikungintl.com/images/HaJinBao.jpg
Look at the size of the traditional on the left as opposed to the commercial on the right; now you tell me, should that broadsword be made proportionally the same? If it were, trying to train with it, with out being a master, would cause you to violate the principles of the Internal constantly, which would make the practice moot.
Look at the way Ha Jin Bao is sinking with the weight of the traditional, (and that’s a big dude. 6’5) you can’t see it in the picture, but it’s making him work. There were points in his demo that the blade disappeared. But that was after a build up.
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Those are large dao, yes.
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(3) there is no way to tell if it is combat worthy or not: we cannot go back in time to check, and without further information to support such a claim, how can it be answered?)
Again, are you saying that our Sifu lied to us? I trust his word. That’s all I need. I’ve known him too long to doubt him. But of course, you don’t know us and only have what we’re telling you. But like Novell told you before, " believe it or not, it’s you’re choice". Trying to prove it too you is a waste of time. The sword is in China so it can’t be presented to you for your scrutiny.
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I do not think your teacher is lying (and I have no proof if he was), but that does not mean that your teacher is all-knowing about all things. This is not a cheap shot at your teacher but a remark about all people in general. We pass down the traditions we receive from other people, accurate or not. How do you account for the general misconceptions about Chinese martial systems? I never said you sifu lied; that is something you made up. Had the above information been supplied from the start, I could have added a caveat to avoid what you are proposing.
The only waste of time is that you are trying to argue with me about assumptions you are making. You should not have to present it to me for my scrutiny; it should be for yours. There is a difference between showing and telling.
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(As I stated earlier, opinion is one thing; proof is another. I asked another forumite here to post video of him using his dao, and he declined.)
Look guy,
We’ve been putting more up on our sites beyond the basics for sometime now. We don’t do clips at request. Are you paying for this? Why don’t you post one of your self-demonstrating your sword?
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It sounds like you and your friend in question have a lot in common: you both are pretty quick to anger and assumption. Instead of taking all of this as an observer, you are reacting to a unintentional, non-existent attack. Both of you guys need to step back and look at the screen. What am I saying? Am I really this nobody from nowhere who is trying to ruin your day? If you really believe your closing, "Peace," you would not be so quick to anger. Just say you cannot do it for reasons X, Y, and Z. There is not reason to be upset, guy.
If you really, really want, I could post some pictures as I go through the dao forms I know. But it will not accomplish a lot of anything because it is a photograph, not a moving picture.
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We prefer the open hands, but weapons train certain attributes so we learned them. I learned them just for the purpose of teaching. Along the way I discovered some that I liked, which is the specialty weapons of Ba-Gua, the exception is the spear, my weapon of choice. But I digress.
You do a video. What’s your style anyway?
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You do digress. To accurately teach how to use a weapon, you need to be knowledgeable in its usage AS WELL AS knowing the difference between a real sword and its properties and a fake sword and its properties. Do you make this distinction when you teach?
I practice a particular system; I don’t have my own style. I currently practice Hung Gar and Choy Li Fut. I have a couple of year’s worth of Chen Style Tai Chi. My philosophical and technical background is largely influenced by the first martial art I practiced for many years, Aikido. I also have some year’s worth of Naginata-do in there if it matters here.
Me put a video on the Internet? I would only do that if I thought what I could contribute to the martial art audience (European, Asian, African, American, South American, Middle Eastern, etc) would be beneficial. As it is, there are good demonstrations for Hung Gar and Choy Li Fut on the Internet, so I say nay. That MUST be the reason why you have a web site set up. You hope that what you have to say and show will be beneficial, not mundane material that is just a reiteration of what someone else said.
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(I am not saying one cannot use it as fast as in the last couple of video clips; I have not seen someone do that yet. And to believe that the dao is real with only an opinion, WITHOUT any other background, is a leap. There is nothing wrong with questioning the validity of a source when that source is in question.)
This is not an opinion! Our Sifu told us so. That’s it.
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I know this is difficult to understand, but it IS an opinion. Your sifu is not a god as mine is not. They are real people who make real mistakes. If you choose to believe someone, admit that it is your opinion that your sifu is correct. But do not blindly believe someone JUST BECAUSE he or she said so. That is committing the fallacy about historical inaccuracy you detail below. Being that I said this, you will probably "hear" that I am poking fun at your teacher. Nothing could be further from the truth. He is going by what he knows. Since I don’t know anything about your teacher beyond this thread, you could be a helpful party and direct me toward a good source aobut him. If anything, I am giving you advice.
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(It also described a famous Bagua practitioner who was known as the "whirlwind of death" with blood splattering everywhere when he used his Bagua dao during the Boxer Rebellion. If this really happened, no one talks about it or has printed it anywhere. One would think this would have made a historical note in the many texts available on the Boxer Rebellion.)
The person being spoken of is Xing-I/Ba-Gua master Li Cung Yi. Let me ask you this, what do you know about Southeast Asia during WWII? Do you how the term "Leatherneck" came into being? And if you don’t, why don’t you know about it? Some of the most incredible personal battles in history have not been documented because, for some unknown reason, the one doing the unheard of is on the losing side.
Do you know how much truth has been omitted from history? It’s almost to the point that the majority of the planet is living and believing a complete lie. I don’t follow or perpetrate myths, nor do I believe in everything written or not written. The fact that it’s not in a book does not make it not so.
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I agree with much that you say here. It easily goes with what I have been saying in this thread all along. In fact, you are proof that your own statements are true. So when you say "I don’t follow or perpetrate myths," you are actually in contradiction of your own statement with regard to knowledge of Chinese weaponry.
Are We Reading the Same Text?: Part Three
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(Something with mythic proportions as truth is taking a mythic jump into a void. Such things should be sought after and studied, not developed and, then, kept secret or forgotten.)
I agree, but what does that have to do with what we’re talking about? There has been no myth pushing on our part. It’s been said that the skill level of the old masters is not as we’ve been told, I disagree, I seen too much in our time and know that they don’t compare to the guys of yesteryear. So it depends on you.
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Well, if you re-read your statements about Chinese weaponry and do some research on the subject (as I said, searching www.swordforum.com is a step in the right direction because there are a lot of knowledgeable people there), you will find that you are perpetuating myths. I brought it up because it is such an easy thing to do (pass along legend as truth). My statement has everything to do with this online conversation.
And you say "I seen too much in our time and know that they don’t compare to the guys of yesteryear. So it depends on you." Well, if you can share your experiences and life events, I would appreciate it. Do you go into this in other threads? Could you point them out for me? I would be interested in reading them. In a way, it depends on YOU if YOU know things that others do not. I think there is a worthy audience here. Do you wish to share your experiences?
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(To question is to make a stronger connections with one's very sense of the world and his relation to it. To question is to be alive within one's traditions.)
I totally agree.
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If you believe this, why are you bent out of shape about what you think I said when I never said "it"?
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(O.K. Thanks. If possible, could you compare the flex of the "real" one you have with that of the commercial version? You wouldn't, by chance, be able to post video of yourself with your prize version, would you?)
These pictures were taken about 3yrs ago and the quality is not that good (the comparison).
The better shot is with Ha Jin Bao.
I’ve never video taped myself with the Da Dao, and while I do plan to do one, with all that’s on my plate at this time with the tournament and all, it won’t be soon, besides it will be for sale. We give too much info as it is. And I’m not giving away what I worked so hard for to Internet warriors that want to seem like their good. Not saying that you are one of these, but I don’t know that either. Hope you can understand this.
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It is obvious you question my background, which is fine and expected. I will probably never meet you in person, so what is wrong with this wonderment? However, if you think about it, everyone here is an "Internet warrior." It is only part of the aspect of living in the current age.
"We give too much info as it is. And I’m not giving away what I worked so hard for" is also expected to an extent. Quite frankly, I keep quiet about what I know as much as possible UNLESS I find someone who I think could benefit from what I have to offer. This is rare, you know. But the Internet is a different place. I can understand your point about not wanting to "share your secrets." But this is not a time in history when the fear of one style stealing from another or a phony trying to steal your art is enough to hold back teaching. I never asked for secrets; I asked for details, primary sources, links, or (if possible) a demonstration (if it was available). There is no need for negative arguments when none have been offered.
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Peace
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May this be true even at junctures of disagreement.
Doug M
id like to chime in here.
I have been reading the rather long winded posts by every one and id like to say something.
I know a bit about swords (REAL SWORDS) im not talking about your drop cast steel or the light springy wushu steel or some of the weapons that we use in practice and forms.
REAL swords are relatively light and tempered such that they will be able to chop through most weapons out there.
with the exception of the scottish claymore(which is a tad on the heavy side) swords were made as light and as strong as possible so that when you did go in to combat you could attack and slash and stab as quickly as possible. i have a real jian blade, it wasnt cheap, it is light and razor sharp and tough and could run you through in a second. practice weapons were either made too light (for show) or heavier than normal(to develope muscle control so that when you DID put a real weapon in your hand, you moved it like lightning,,,but back in the old days you practiced with real weapons, its not like today)
These forms, like the bagua dao and the jian and the deer horns authentically represent the movements of bagua, the 8 triagrams and the way in which your focus comes from within and spirals outward. The forms may not necessarily show the exact way that a REAL fight with these weapons are done,,because in REALITY,,weapons combat is not this long winded choreography.
in the first encounter someone gets cut and killed in three moves or less,,and the combat is very close,,not far away and not dodge and play. these forms are for generating spirit,chi, and maintaining fitness and health etc etc. and yes you are doing certain combat aspects.
i have posted this link before but here is what REAL SWORDS are.
www.angelsword.com
peace,,TWS