Defining "Internal"

The 'Internal' is more than a way of practice, and one finds its metaphorical description in Western athletics also, as in the following passage:

Athletes call flow experience being in the "zone" - an optimal psychological and physiological climate for peak performance. Brazilian soccer player Pele has described days when everything was going right, and feeling "a strange calmness I hadn't experienced in any of the other games. It was a type of euphoria; I felt I could run all day without tiring, that I could dribble through any of their teams or all of them, that I could almost pass through them physically. I felt I could not be hurt."

Basketball players, when they experience being "in the zone" report that the basket seems bigger, and feeling an almost mystical connection to it. The legendary hitter Ted Williams has said that sometimes he could see the seams on a pitched baseball. Gymnast Carol Johnson found that on some days she experienced the balance beam as wider, so "any worry of falling off disappeared."

Football quarterback star John Brodie told Michael Murphy (author of "The Psychic Side of Sports") that he found periods in every game when "time seems to slow down, in an uncanny way, as if everyone were moving in slow motion. It seems as if I had all the time in the world to watch the receivers run their patterns, and yet I know the defensive line is coming at me just as fast as ever."
Find the whole article here:
http://talentdevelop.com/articles/Page8.html

In the above passage in our Western language pattern are similar descriptions to the classic Internal states of: light body; 1 oz moving 1000 lbs; a bird unable to take off from the hand; leave second /arrive first...etc.

It's called flow psychology, not based on bio mechanics, but certainly found in practitioners with unquestioned top level skill at their chosen physical field.
It is a quality of mind, or maybe an occurrence within the mind, that appears to happen within a framework of practice...

The Tao can't be made to happen, it just happens.

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Originally Posted by spiralstair

It's called flow psychology, not based on bio mechanics, but certainly found in practitioners with unquestioned top level skill at their chosen physical field.
It is a quality of mind, or maybe an occurrence within the mind, that appears to happen within a framework of practice...

The Tao can't be made to happen, it just happens.

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very nice;

I would suggest however, that biomechanics do in fact play a roll to some degree: for example, I wud warrant that if we examined the breathing mechanics of an athlete "in the zone", or if we looked at how their postural systems were organizing relative to the ground reaction forces they were generating, there wud b marked differences from when they were in a non-flow state; on another level, the way that their autonomics were functioning in the zone wud necesarilly have to b reflective of a change in their state - and autonomics r influenced by, among other things, postural habitus - for example, when doing standing practice and one gets that feeling of "activation", this is related to changes in autonomic tone, brought about by changes in postural alignment;

I personally have seen that biomechanics (movement / muscle function), is related to psychological states in many ways - for example, people who undergo spontaneous "unwinding" while being treated manually via various approaches (e.g. - myofascial, craniosacral, Hakomi, etc.) experience emotional states / recall based on the movement / position of the body - the movement was associated w a psychological state; again, autonomics play a big piece, as people who do wexperience unwinding necesarily have to b in a state of relative parasympathetic tone (similar to what happens during standing qigong practice);

my point is that I think that the link btw these various systems is, while at times opaque, can in fact b extremely robust, but we just don't always notice these connections...

Ghost in the Machine

Yeah, I don't disagree.
Could be just the word biomechanics that has a machine-like ring to it...purely semantics.
My point is that in cases above, and also found in some descriptions of IMA, it's more 'ghost' and less 'machine'.
Though they're not going anywhere without each other...:)

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Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn

very nice;

I would suggest however, that biomechanics do in fact play a roll to some degree: for example, I wud warrant that if we examined the breathing mechanics of an athlete "in the zone", or if we looked at how their postural systems were organizing relative to the ground reaction forces they were generating, there wud b marked differences from when they were in a non-flow state; on another level, the way that their autonomics were functioning in the zone wud necesarilly have to b reflective of a change in their state - and autonomics r influenced by, among other things, postural habitus - for example, when doing standing practice and one gets that feeling of "activation", this is related to changes in autonomic tone, brought about by changes in postural alignment;

I personally have seen that biomechanics (movement / muscle function), is related to psychological states in many ways - for example, people who undergo spontaneous "unwinding" while being treated manually via various approaches (e.g. - myofascial, craniosacral, Hakomi, etc.) experience emotional states / recall based on the movement / position of the body - the movement was associated w a psychological state; again, autonomics play a big piece, as people who do wexperience unwinding necesarily have to b in a state of relative parasympathetic tone (similar to what happens during standing qigong practice);

my point is that I think that the link btw these various systems is, while at times opaque, can in fact b extremely robust, but we just don't always notice these connections...

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Not debating.
I have nothing against learning bio mechanics, The great difficulty is access to top flight teachers of arts, if you are taught well by let's a say Chen Xiao Wang you dont need a bio mechanics vocabulary to feel and understand the motions from the hands on corrections. His student Ren G in NYC just does it.

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Originally Posted by Vajramusti

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Not debating.
I have nothing against learning bio mechanics, The great difficulty is access to top flight teachers of arts, if you are taught well by let's a say Chen Xiao Wang you dont need a bio mechanics vocabulary to feel and understand the motions from the hands on corrections. His student Ren G in NYC just does it.

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Bio-mechanics is just body level application, nothing to do with internal application of MA.

Micro orbits and Macro orbits are also first level of development and do mean you have internal application.

Since TGY has shown me his level and thinks that he has learned all there is to know, I will not peruse discussing internal with someone who's cup is full and has a ignorant attitude.

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Originally Posted by Vajramusti

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Not debating.
I have nothing against learning bio mechanics, The great difficulty is access to top flight teachers of arts, if you are taught well by let's a say Chen Xiao Wang you dont need a bio mechanics vocabulary to feel and understand the motions from the hands on corrections. His student Ren G in NYC just does it.

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I agree that a given practitioner may not "need" a description based on biomechanics in order to feel, understand, perform or even teach any of this - the "proof" of this is that for hundreds (thousands?) of years, these and related arts were passed down without the use of any sort of biomechanical analysis as such; so my point has NEVER been that anyone "needs" this sort of definition;

however, I would argue that what underlies these arts CAN be fully described via a biomechanical approach, albeit one that utilizes a more "holistic" perspective than what might find in some venues; for example, in standard biomechanics, the roll of connective tissue vis a vis its tensegrity properties is not usualy discussed, but is an important factor when we look at so-called "internal" practice; likewise, there are certain biomechanical parameters that can b gleaned from the osteopathic literature that are not elucidated elsewhere that relate directly to certain "internal" principles; we can also look at Structura Integration (Rolfing), Alexander Technique, Feldenkreis and similar "body-mind" systems for ways of conceptualizing how the body organizes posturally in gravity which further considers "internal" practice in a contemporary framework;

so sure, no one needs any of that stuff to work "internally"; however, I personally believe that looking at it from a contemporary perspective markedly improves one's ability to assimilate the practice, essentially impacting the learning curve and cutting through a lot of the otherwise "dense" language and classical imagery that in some cases actually interferes with learning; remember, TCMA is couched in a cultural paradigm that was endemic to Chinese practitioners' lived experience - so using that sort of imagery FACILITATED their learning - they didn't have to absorb a whole, unfamiliar cultural paradigm in order to "get it"; why then, should that be the case for "foreign" learner's? why should we necessarily have to wade through a morass of terms and concepts that are intrinsically alien to us, when there r concepts / descriptors readily available and that r exponentially more accessible to our own cultural consciousness? again, one can choose to utilize it or not - it is not mandatory, but it is available;

the only problem I have is when people say that TCMA "internal", by it's own intrinsic self-nature cannot be described in the manner I am describing it - they aregue that the reason for this is a) so-called "western" descriptors (scientific or otherwise) are intrinsically inadequate to the task of doing so and that b) I personally don't "get" internal practice deeply enough if I think that they can be described this way; of course, if that is someone's position a priori, then I can't really argue with them because they have closed off their minds from the start, so that's their issue, not mine...

anyway, just my perspective;

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

Bio-mechanics is just body level application, nothing to do with internal application of MA.

Micro orbits and Macro orbits are also first level of development and do mean you have internal application.

Since TGY has shown me his level and thinks that he has learned all there is to know, I will not peruse discussing internal with someone who's cup is full and has a ignorant attitude.

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really now, this sort of posting continues to reveal your own ignorance of not only internal practice in general (really, you should ask your teacher for a refund, you have been horribly "gyped") and clearly underscores the particularly low level at which you seem to be eternally stuck - anyone here who has any knowledge at al wil immediately recognize this; if you cannot realize it, than unfortunately neither I nor anyone else can help u at all;

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

Since TGY has shown me his level and thinks that he has learned all there is to know, I will not peruse discussing internal with someone who's cup is full and has a ignorant attitude.

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At least not with someone who is not as ignorant and as full as yourself!

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Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn

really now, this sort of posting continues to reveal your own ignorance of not only internal practice in general (really, you should ask your teacher for a refund, you have been horribly "gyped") and clearly underscores the particularly low level at which you seem to be eternally stuck - anyone here who has any knowledge at al wil immediately recognize this; if you cannot realize it, than unfortunately neither I nor anyone else can help u at all;

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Your just like a kid in a school yard that just keeps mocking people "I know you are, but what am I",

It would not do any good to try explain this to you, it would be like trying to talk to someone in a language they don't understand.

Have your teacher, teach you some internal application, then we can have something real to discuss.

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

Have your teacher, teach you some internal application, then we can have something real to discuss.

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I like the idea of discussion "internal application". Which one should we start first?

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Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown

At least not with someone who is not as ignorant and as full as yourself!

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Ha, the narcist is back, big time wrestling over? LoL

Why don't you and TGY talk about how boring it is know it all at such a young age., or do you finally have something constructive to say?, besides their is no internal.

Otherwise you can get back to your easy chair and continue watching big time wrestling.

The question is not really whether internal can be learned and taught using a bio-mechanical framework, these skills must be understood intellectually, but more importantly, felt in order to become fully skilled.

The point is, there is no magical force heretofore unknown, or unrecognized, that is being developed or tapped into or used, etc. It is nothing more than the proper use of leverage, momentum and psychology in a manner that benefits the practioner. The problem with people like Robinhood is that whey want it to be special, because knowing it makes them special, and when the speicialness of it all is negated, that takes away from their feeling of superiority, that they know something special and secret, that few others know or understand. When anyone can learn it and do it is no longer special. It is no different than when a magic trick is revealed. The "awe factor" disappears and the trick becomes nothing special. It can be very disappointing to those who like to live with the fantasy!

The fact some practitioners cannot recognize this is not a disparagement on the art or process being used, but on the limited ability of the practitioner to perceive and understand the underlying principles of what they practice beyond the traditional explanations for it.

To say that another does not understand or has limited development because they can see beyond the fantasy of the traditional story is weak reasoning. There has been NO internal practitioner that has demonstrated "repeatedly" under varying circumstances, his exceptional abilities work in any dynamic setting against skilled opponents intending to control or hurt them.

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

Ha, the narcist is back, big time wrestling over? LoL

Why don't you and TGY talk about how boring it is know it all at such a young age., or do you finally have something constructive to say?, besides their is no internal.

Otherwise you can get back to your easy chair and continue watching big time wrestling.

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When you have something constructive to say yourself, MAYBE you can criticize others!

So far you have offered nothing to substantiate you understand anything beyond the fantasy of internal!

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

Your just like a kid in a school yard that just keeps mocking people "I know you are, but what am I",

It would not do any good to try explain this to you, it would be like trying to talk to someone in a language they don't understand.

Have your teacher, teach you some internal application, then we can have something real to discuss.

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The only thing you have done here is admit your own inadequacy. TGY has repeatedly attempted to explain to you his opinion using words and reasoning you do not understand, why can you not make the same effort.

All you do is insult others but provide no insight or argument to the discussion attempting to validate your view.

"You cannot understand" as an argument only demonstrates that you don't have a clear understanding of the topic under discussion!

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

Have your teacher, teach you some internal application, then we can have something real to discuss.

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Let's talk about "internal application". Will you conside this "internal application"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KK4gBstnYs