Originally Posted by
t_niehoff
James, this is a true story. I used to train BJJ at a satellite school that shared space with a Krav Maga Academy. One day we saw them training ground defenses (escapes). It was crap. They were practicing them "alive" and we're in most cases pulling them off. But only because the Krav guys we're really crappy. A BJJ brown belt (who is a really nice guy) later tried to privately talk to the KM instructor and explain why what they were doing wasn't very good, why it opened them up to several submissions, how it could be easily countered, etc. The KM instructor didn't want to hear it.
Listen, if I was in this same situation, teaching ground defences, and a BJJ guy came up to me and said that what I was showing wasn't very good, I would take his advice absolutlely. This is his specialty, so why not? If I had the time and inclination I would study BJJ, MT and the such, but right now for me I can't. It's a personal choice. The question is this, and it has nothing to do with winning, but more about survival. I know this, if I have an encounter on the street, and the guy just happens to be a BJJ player, and it goes to the ground, I'm in trouble for sure, I know this already. What I have to do is KO him before this happens and this is the equation we all must solve when fighting on the street, utilizing our strengths against his weakness.
Let me ask you, if you were wanting to learn "ground defense", wouldn't you rather learn good, solid fundamentals that weren't self-limiting? That didn't depend on your opponent being crap? Or, since it is only self-defense and you will only be betting your life on it, that it really doesn't matter? After all, when are you going to meet anyone on the street that has any skill?
Like I said above, if I had the chance I would study BJJ, or at the very least have a personal experience with it. I'm not dumb enough to dispute it's effectiveness. The key thing to remember is this, all "fighters" whether skilled ring men or plain old street guys, have strengths and weakness, some are strikers some are grapplers take down guys, some can do a bit of both. On the street you don't know who is what, so you have no other option but to do what you do best, to the best of your ability. For all you know the guy your fighting is a good comp fighter, or just a scrub. My point is you don't know, and the element of unpredicability/surprise is relevant for both combatants. He who hits first has the better chance of success, as I'd rather be the aggressor than the defender on the street, if and when it comes to that. Also, IMO self protection is not about WINNING, rather it is about SURVIVAL. If all I need to do is get the guy or guys out of my space to give me the option of running or picking up a make shift weapon then that is all I need to do to survive.
You miss my point entirely. What I am trying to get across is simply how do you know that what you are doing is fundamentally sound? I guess if you don't care that doesn't matter. But since we are presumably training a fighting method, I would think that would be important.
Well you would think that when it comes to striking and you are training with guys that have at least 3 or 4 years of experience, they would know how to throw a half decent punch? As someone that has taught in a large school environment, I can't tell you how many times I have met people that are coming in to check us out, and when I ask them to attack me they don't have enough coordination to throw anything as decent as the people that have been training for awhile. Generally IMO, most people know little to nothing about throwing a punch in a half decent fashion, never mind taking someone down with control and position. Of course, if you meet up with a decent boxer or MT guy you will find it more difficult to deal with, and guess what they might find it difficult to deal with me as well, who's to say that is not true? Is it written in some book somewhere that boxers and MT guys automatically have no problem with WC methods of striking?
My point is that we can't KNOW if we don't practice doing it against competent people. Doing it and pulling it off against poorly skilled people doesn't show us anything significant. Like the Krav Maga instructor who can amke his escapes work against scrubs -- he believes what he is doing is good. But it is junk. The only way he has to see that is to get out and try it with competent grapplers. He'd see that immediately. He'd also see what is sound.
Being able to pull off what you are training in, whether or not it is against a scrub or not does show you that you have fundemental skills, because when you first came to learn it, you couldn't do it that way, so at the least you are better than when you first started learning. Now if your goal is to be able to pull this off against skilled guys from other fighting system (which is always a harder task to succeed at, regardless of your training method or style), then just do that, meet up with them, spar with them and learn from the experience. I'm seeing a pattern in your post, and that pattern is that WC guys are automatically at a disadvangtage against strikers from other systems, why is this so? Expecially when the WC guys are training virutually in the same way, with bag/pad work, sparring and the such?
Our knowledge and understanding of WCK comes from our skill. If what we do is not fundamentally sound, it means we have a low-level of skill. And so it means we really don't know or understand what we are doing. Does that matter to you?
I can have a high understanding of the training system, but if I don't apply it sometime during the training process I won't have that understanding. Chi sau is good for close in contact work, but if that is all you are doing you won't know how to enter or engage from a non contact position. To answer your question, yes a high understanding of the system is important to me.
This isn't about feeling superior. Anyone who gets out an fight with competent people will NOT feel superior. And do you want to know why? Because they'll be getting their ass kicked regularly and consistently. That's why I don't make claims about myself -- I get beat up everytime I train. I'm sore right now. But that will be true of anyone, regardless of their skill level, who gets out and mixes things up with competent people.
I'm not saying this to hear my own voice to for any rep. I don't want a rep. I am saying these things because I wish that someone had told me these things 20 years ago. I probably wouldn't have believed them either. But at least they would have gotten me thinking.
Well when you keep on repeating yourself, post after post, thread after thread, it sure looks like you like to hear yourself talk.