Since it has been quiet for a moment...Let's have an intermission.
Beware of the addiction!...;)
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Since it has been quiet for a moment...Let's have an intermission.
Beware of the addiction!...;)
I beat the gameQuote:
Originally posted by old jong
Since it has been quiet for a moment...Let's have an intermission.
Beware of the addiction!...;)
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1s5n1fEZ-Q
Most of us are aware of the keysi method by now, here is their latest.
No comments?
Chi biters !!
The lot of you !!
I really haven't seen enough KFM to form an opinion. From the little I have seen, it's a tight guard, lots of elbows and knees, but nothing really new, or different. What are your views on this? What distinguishes KFM from anything else?
Kinda like Krav Maga-looks pretty much like Kenpo or Kajukenbo.
It's the cousin of this: http://crazymonkeydefense.com/cmd/
Blasphemy !!!
LOL !
It's funny but years ago, when the first Batman came out I mentioned that and got the "blank look".
Funny how it's hard for some people not to see the "sameness" in things.
Those keysi guys do make good videos and have some fun training approaches.
Here's one of the Keysi instructional videos: http://video.yandex.ru/users/arunas1971/view/151/
cheers seen that before and again its nothing like the CM i was taught, other than having the hands on the head its really different
Of the two, I'd say CM is better for the MMA fighter and seems to have more depth.
Keysi seems to be for when you need to just shell up and go Bat-$h!t-Crazy on someone.
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But you'd have to admit that the hands on the head thing does make them look similar to the casual observer.
Oh I agree they on the surface they look similar, just as the peek a bo style of boxing looks like CM when its done with boxing gloves, but I think the CM structure is much more advanced and practical in a fighting environment and an MMA environment, it starts out as a simple shield (but in a different way to the kesyi guys, the hands move independently of each other and you always look at the opponent) it then moves to an offensive stage when modified slips, bobs and footwork are used at the same time as the hands move, you also learn to strike out of the structure and back into the structure, where as when the kesyi guys seem to punch they drop there hands to a normal stance and go from there. CM structure because its taught in a live environment (had to get that in there, go straight blast gym!) doesn’t go in for the impractical stuff like using the structure to block knees elbowing the legs etc and blends it with a more orthodox striking and clinching game. I happen to think CM structure is very good for self defence and for MMA where a lesser striker want to close the distance and get the clinch, or as a recover method when under attack as long as you remember to strike back…it is not good for using purely defensively (Like tito did with chuck!)
so I tried to watch all 49 minutes of the Keysi video...
Frost is definitely correct in saying that CM has wayyy more depth. Keysi does have it's strengths that a TCMA person could learn from- those being using a simplified blocking structure and practice freestyle against 1 or 2 people. There's something appealing about having two people slam you into a wall and beating the crap out of you with focus mitts. There's a lot that I don't like about keysi after watching the vid... the main thing being that weird bobbing dance that they do. Seriously, after about 30 minutes of the video, I felt like I was watching the back up dancers to a euro techno band - especially when they practiced their balance drill. It was just too much for me to take- so I turned it off.
CM is better. Better methodology, better instruction of ringmanship, just plain better at everything- plus, you don't feel like you're dancing at a moby rave when you practice it and that's important to me.
A few things,
Yes, CM is far more detailed than the KFM, but I think that is on purpose.
KFM has some of that "keep this stuff inside" mentality carried over from their JKD and Kali background whereas Rodney is very open in his videos.
CM doesn't really deal with multiples or kicks or the "mma" aspect as much and is more geared towards dirty boxing and clinch fighting, but then again, that is what it is designed for.
KFM SEEMS to try to address those things more and in a more practical sense but to be honest, I am not sold on HOW they do that (outside of the contact training drills which CM has also).
I've seen the KFM clips that deal with ground work and clinch fighting too and, well...I am of two minds about them:
1) They probably work from the POV of that non-stop striking barrage which makes it difficult for someone to close in, clinch and takedown.
Though I am not sure how practical it is since I have never tried it.
2)I can see it presenting a problem for someone that has never seen it and get exposed to it and are surprised by it.
I have Rodney's CM and dirty boxing videos and DON'T have the KFM ones so I am going on what I have seen of King's detailed stuff VS what we see of the KFM "marketing" stuff, so...
The big thing for me is that as you say Rodney (and the rest of the SBG guys, I learned it from Karl tanswell) are open and honest about how to train to and what it is for, its not a be all end all system, it’s a very good system for getting beginners used to sparring and develops a very good defensive system if you have limited time to train. And I agree with Rodney that boxing is very attribute based and hard to learn if all you have is a couple of days a week to train, but you can add it in to the CM structure as you get better.
For me the KFM is not proven, ie I know guys that have used CM in MMA fights I don’t know anyone who has fought with the KFM and some of their training methods are just plain goofy
I have seen how Rodney deals with kicks and the MMA aspect, he and karl both use sprawls to defend double leg attacks, (which is why in the CM structure you lower your stance more and stand more square on) and for upper body clinches they use the CM structure to brace against the opponent and create space and deny the underhook. Body kicks he defends the same way as punches to the body: lowering level and taking it on the arms, leg kicks he simply steps in on and right crosses people :)
For me the CM structure is a great way to get close to a better striker to get the clinch/takedown and a very good defensive structure from which to develop a more conventional striking game.
I tried to watch the video (need more time), but I did watch the intro and the first part of it talking about "the thinking man".
After getting past the boy band photoshoot at the beginning of the video, what I noticed was how open the their position left you.
When blocking a hook type punch, they show brining both hands up to the head and turning into it slightly. This leaves you wide open for a hook punch to the ribs on the opposite side, which even in an untrained fighter is going to happen. I don't think you would have enough time to mount a good defense to take care of it.
This is interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkzFkN2FO3U
Whatever happened to the official KFM website? With Jack Reacher, Batman, and the M.I. Series, seems like interest in the method would pick up. Heck, I'd be interested in a seminar or something, just can't seem to find solid info about it in the States.
lol I remember back in the day these guys chased my coach repeatedly asking for private mms and groundwork training he wasn't interested looking at this poor posture in guard elbows to the legs and stomach they still need lessons
Ita the usual trying to look unique and special to attract those who don't actually want to do mma because its too hard but still want to say they train the realz ground that works on the streets
And here the issue with that clip:
The gut on the bottom is NOT countering.
It's all well and good to show elbows with "keysi-flavour" in the guard but none of what they showed is actually "new" for anyone that has taken basic MMA.
Man I just don't hate on the Keysi like you guys do. Sure they look a little crazy, and probably are just a bit nuts, but their methodology and training methods are actually pretty sound. They incorporate contact and pressure from the get go, keep tight hands and protect their heads, and promote aggressiveness and fitness.
Be fair im the only one hating on them, ronin simply provided sound critism :)
Heres the thing they are teaching MMA without ever putting in any fighter of note anywhere, they are making money off MMA without really testing their methods in that environment, that just annoys me, their ground work wouldn’t work like that against an opponent actually breaking their posture, climbing guard etc, its MMA lite, just as their comb the hair defense doesn’t work the way they teach it against a half decent opponent, and its NOT the same as crazy monkey, that has been tested and proved to work in MMA, what they do hasn’t and yet they are on the band wagon
No - but that's true of oh so many things in all martial arts. Actually I've never seen Keysi in person. It has very little penetration in the US. I think it's the hair thing, they're always messing up their hair. Plus the disco tech, Americans don't like disco tech.
Everything you say is true, but...
I always look for takeaways when looking at other martial arts. What they do that I like is keep the hands and forearms tight and in motion. Plus they do a lot of pressure drilling (at least in the videos). As far as this technique being taught as MMA... I'm ok with it. I haven't done MMA, but I've done no-gi and I've come to realize that there's a lot more leeway in no-gi. A sweaty spazz is hard to grapple cleanly with.
That's why I tell my kung fu purist friends there's really only a very few techniques that you really have to know.
I have no doubt THAT is the reason.
:D
Don't get me wrong, there is lots of good in the KFM, like I said I borrowed some of their stuff myself.
AT times they look like they leave too much of their body open but because they tend to work "under the shoulders" ( lower center than their opponent), it isn't as much f an issues as it is in "crazy monkey" boxing.
Its had a fair showing at the amateur level, SBG guys used it before the split, in the UK in the early days you saw a lot of it. In the pro levels not so much because they have the time, and skill level to develop an attribute style game, but you do see it in pro level but its normally used as part of the defense if they get in close at that level not the primarily defense.
In fact this is how it seems to have evolved in Rodney’s thinking originally it was CM structure all the time, now it seems to be CM structure when in close, or when in trouble. I suppose that’s the main difference CM was born for MMA and evolved as it was used in MMA, KFM was born for the streetz and has never really been tested and thus not evolved
As a trade-off I prefer the crazy monkey leaving the body open to the whole go low KFM thing and elbow the legs…crazy monkey allows you to set up power shots, defend the shot and move around more freely
Yung ling has a similar approach to hitting and hurting the limbs, as does our systems hung gar (my sife likes to hit a low stance and punch and elbow the legs and hips that sucks ….. I see the value especially if you really don’t want to hurt the guy (or have a weapon) but prefer the bakkmei method (and the CM way) of simply hitting the guy in the head and going straight down the centre but that’s just me
As an aside my boxing coach teaches a very similar high guard to CM, especially when in close and trading shots: gloves just above the eyebrows forearms resting on the body butt tucked under to close off the body shot, works well with big 14oz gloves but for MMA I still prefer level changing to defend the body shot lol
I tend to use "limb destruction" when I wanna make a point and used it a bit when bouncing and it ended a few confrontations without have to KO anyone.
The tricky part is, as always, how fast the limbs are coming at you and that is why you don't see it that much at the higher levels ( limbs coming in too fast).
I agree with the level change to defend the body.
The dragon style of doing it ( along with snake and SPM) tend to angle and "zig-zag" a lot so it kind of fits well in those systems.
Yep that’s why at higher levels the only limb destruction you see is the thigh kick lol
Not done SPM but dragon zig-zag coupled with extensive use of the hammer fist (and upwards and dowards stamping fists) makes hitting the limbs, (upper and lower) easier, of course bak mei’s method of just taking the guys head out of the equation is also useful sometimes
Of course the dragon way can equally be taking the head off as it can be hitting the incoming limb :)