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Many of the movements that are expressed in the solo forms as 'long', are applied as short. One trains 'long' to develop the ability to transfer the power to the end of the limbs. This develops quite a bit of 'pop' in the motion and gives the CMA a lot of their charecteristic flavor. Long power when applied short has a strong jolting effect on the recipient.
Applied in the LOG sequence this manner of thinking turns the spear hand after the scoop into a 'shoulder stroke' where the attacker really drives their shoulder foward as in the solo form.The scooping hand turns over and may trap the opponents arm(are you inside or outside their foward shoulder?) or press against their torso/head to anchor them for your stroke.
None of this works in the 'research' situation unless both partners break out of the 'one step' mind set and try many different attacks, from differing angles, all applied with 'intent'. Then you have a chance to really examine your form and learn to adjust it to fit the situation. Self-motivation(doesn't come from a teacher)is required along with a partner who is willing to undergo some pain.
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Jack Squat
The line drill of 8 Basic Punches moves in a straight line, no 90 deg. turns. You need to break away from the single spot pattern. In the single spot drill you have Ping Choy (R)/Gwa Choy (R)/Chow Choy (R)/Bean Choy (R). In the line drill you have Ping Choy (R)/Gwa Choy (R)/Chow Choy (L)/Bean Choy (L). Start with reverse punch and step in for Gwa Choy.
There are some pretty advanced (and slick) moves in some of the lower level material (see my post on 16 Hands throw). The spear hand in LOG can thrust to the throat or back hand to collarbone. Either way it's all the leverage that's needed to drop opponent on back of head. I don't teach that stuff to beginners because they need to focus on blocking, punching and moving. Besides, you can do some real damage with this move and the 16 Hands example. And I don't teach intermediate or advanced students so right now it's all just in my head. Of course a lot of Wah Lum students read these posts so I guess they know them now.:)
Also, on the long range moves you have to keep in mind that sometimes the technique is executed BEFORE the final position. If you don't know the app then you tend to look at the final position as the focus of the technique. What I like is that there are generally multiple apps for each move ranging from basic to advanced. You teach beginners the basic app and later on show the the advanced apps.
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Hua Lin:
Good point regarding posture and timing of applications.
You're right, a lot of people focus on the end movement. Often times this is the follow through.
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Spiralstair-
Your posted app has a nice taiqi flair (as all good mantis should). Although I use the shoulder stroke app for other moves, never thought of it for that sequence (I was taught to do the finger strikes in a very linear manner, not in a circular, spreading motion. Don't get me wrong-I also feel that the movements of a form are simply a map and not the territory; you often use subtle adaptations in application. I just never thought of spreading/shoulder stroke for that sequence-thanks!)
Hua Lin-
Good info! How about these:
Use the finger strikes to the armpit instead of the throat (potentially deadly dim mak point- you newbies out there please don't actually strike your partners with this!) The "blocking" hand is actually grabbing the opponents wrist and pulling his arm towards you as you thrust the fingers into the pit (ouch!)
Or following the concept of what Spiralstair said (sort of), slip the "spearhand in under the opponents chin to the neck and the "blocking" hand is actually grabbing the opponents hair and pulling his head down into a choke/neck break (your arm presses his neck) (double ouch).
Or this:
After the second finger strike, your right hand ends up inbetween opponents head and left shoulder, your left hand holds his left wrist (works best if opponents arm (and your left arm) is above your right arm, unlike in the form-subtle adaptation). Now do the next move-the circular low mantis hook into pok ma.
I also like what Hua Lin and Joe Mantis said about the open palm gwa choys-in application very fast, very powerful.
Keep 'em coming!
Jack
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Young Mantis and 108,
Ying Ching and Yin Ji are not the same person. (Of course I will check my notes and get back to you with more specific info)
Ying Ching was both a knivesman and good at throwing and Yin Ji was noted for rolling leaking and gate rushing. The Yin Ji form does just that . Maybe the grove or wood represents the low gates and legs. Sometimes leg training is called post or stake training.
Please, excuse me if I don't respond quickly. I have limited access to a computer since I sort of lost mine.
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SGF,
OK, I was just checking. I have not heard of a "Yin Ji" associated with PM and the only person I remember from the 18 Styles Poem as being attributed with rolling and leaking skills is Tahm Fong.
YM
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LOG
i think the true intent is a strike under the jaw(behind chin) and that is why it is thrown on the upward angle. as for finger strength, not much is needed if soft targets are hit, so accuracy is of prime importance. i used to practice accuracy with a piece of plywood that i cut holes in, 2 for eyes, 1 for hollow of throat, slit for four fingers cut up and down represented xyphoid process. i was enthused with the results for about two weeks until i ripped my middle finger nail in half, all the way down. i later(much) found that practicing forms actually made me accurate. i hung a bunch of tennis balls from strings in my shed to practice gim thrusts, i found that i already was able to nail them at will, having never actually poked at a target before.
spiral stair
the shoulder stroke is awesome, coupled with hand traps as they are in the form makes the head/neck/face a target, besides the body.
jack squat
i began in shorin ryu karate when i was a kid. later i studied northern shaolin, tae kwan do, and tai chi. plus the minor experiences that occasionally come by way of seminars.
LOG- at long range for defense against kick, epecially with a quick step or change(bum bo), hands at close range but the scoop is small and coiling, like a snake, and as someone else said, i think hua lin, the strike arrives long before completion. by the way, if you're worried about fingers, or even accuracy, then punch instead, using the rest of the app.
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Flem
I agree the intent is the spear hand under the jaw but even if they block it they're still going down. Once you scoop the leg it's hooked over your shoulder. Scooping hand comes down to grab, pin or clear opponents arm making way for spear hand. Stepping in and striking (punch or a push) sends him backwards and down (remember leg over shoulder?). I can see following with a groin punch.
Jack Squat
Armpit strikes are good. Good target for Taam How Tui, especially after trapping the arm.
Oops. Time to stop talking and start doing.
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Wow -- this one LOG move is a lot more wicked than I 1st thought!
spiral stair -- thanks for clarifying the close-range app. When thinking about it I saw the scoop hand as being outside the forward shoulder, but as you said I won't know if it's effective unless I try it on a training partner. :)
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since we're discussing LOG, what about the three repeated backfists? i find them best used to circle over the opponents two arms, such as a double shirt grab
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hua lin
same moves as you described with the block trap leg, lift leg as you step in deep and the spear hand cuts across their chest at an angle for a takedown.
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Young Mantis,
I stand corrected. Yin ji (swallow fist skill) is a product of Tang Fung aka; Tan Fong aka: Tam Fong. The skill mimics the movements of the swallow in flight: rolling, diving.....
Yin Ji chuen lum kuen makes use of:
1.Hyuen sau- circle hand
2.Bihn sau- whip hand
3.Gwan sau- roll hand
These skills open the form much like Daan chop fa kuen( the versions contained in Cheung,Sifu Kuen po).
The wood represents many thing including Lower Gates and the small forest.
Again Please excuse my error. I often mistake and confuse the names in chinese. Which is why I checked my notes.
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SaMantis
See, and everyone's so quick to learn the next form they don't realize what they already know.
Flem
Are you talking about the double Gwa Choys? I see the 3 double Gwa Choys as beating down the door.
18Elders
That's what I was getting at, pick up the leg and knock them down.
seung ga faat
So how many "swallow" forms are there? We have one in Wah Lum although I haven't seen it yet. At least know I know the attributes of the form. Thanks.
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SGF,
Thanks for the clarification. I had not heard of Tahm Fong's skills as being likened to "Yin Ji" or swallows but it sounds interesting.
The form sounds very interesting from your descriptions.
YM
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Pretty cool app. with the foot being caught on the shoulder Hua Lin.I did not notice that I would do that unintentionally untill I read it.
To tell the truth I was a little frustrated with the technique itself because the foot kept sliding down and hooking onto my shoulder when I would demontrate it to a younger kung fu brothwer of mines:D. Silly me:rolleyes: .
It gives you a good advantage since you can advance forward while the foot is stuck and the opponents balance is shaken.With no root the person won't be able to generate power unless he/she wants to sacrifice balance abnd fall on the ground.