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joe mantis
i teach as i was taught. that is i teach the postures, the sequence of movement and most importantly i teach the rules of body posture- for example, the proper alignment of each bodypart in relation to the others, both still and moving. as for application, that is a personal matter. i feel that the past ready or fighting posture is that of jeet kune do, which is in reality a stand up mantis posture. if a guy comes to me with say a real skill in boxing, like having been in golden gloves, i am not going to say that kung fu is better. instead, i am going to show him how the KF can fit with his aquired skill. i believe that everyone has unque ability and insight, so i do not try to make them conform to a standard, with the exception of the fundamental rules that i spoke of earlier.
a typical application session of mine is to introduce an app have the students work it and then break away from it- by that i mean they work out counters against it. the following session is a similar technique or one that neutralizes most or all of the counters in the previous class.
yes i can judge another by the way they move, but that has more to do with their focus, more than the movement itself, atleast as far as experienced practitioners anyway
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snappingknee
a good example is the change of direction in the first run of beng bu.
think about your footwork, i bet i could show you how to do it very easily.
Have you ever trained in bagua? It is not difficult to get behind someone
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18elders
i don't know the form. could you explain what happens that allows you to get behind and what position you are in, as far as range goes, once you're there?
my impession of getting behind in your set is that it teaches the attacker a weakness in that they do not respond by following the defender's movement.
also, what about the applcation of elbow to toe? is it a secret, or is the application useless?
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snappingknee
"16hands-- No one on this earth can block a thrown punch and move 180' to my backside in the 1/3rd of a second it takes to complete the movement".
I can. Step left (on an angle)/left arm blocking the punch/Lady Horse/step left while turning out of LHS/backfist to back of head. Basically, you throw a right punch and I roll around your right side and attack your rear. Sounds like a lot but it can be executed quickly.
Don't forget to utilize your stances!
I also learned a simple move in Kenpo where you step left (angle) blocking with the left and swinging the right fist up and across hitting back of head. This defends against a right punch where attacker steps in with puch. With a lunging attack you will effectivly be behind the attacker. Different than the opening move of 16 Hands.
flem
I agree with your position concerning teaching people with other training how your techniques integrate or compliment previously learned techniques. When I bounced around the Karate world I hated starting in a new school and being told "That's not how to punch, this is the right way". There isn't a right way or wrong way, just stylistic differences.
18elders
I don't think you're going to get away from that elbow-to-toe statement. :D :D :D
I also do not know Beng Bu so could you find another example? Or is it along the same lines as my example above to snappingknee?
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hua lin laoshi
practically speaking i don't think the step behind is possible. i have trained several techniques that use it but to me, unless your opponent is using a punch like the 3 long punchs in lo han, then they cannot be very skilled. also, with the possible exception of dung tui, the apps lack any real effect- and even that one is not applied 180 degrees(correctly), in fact the one you describe seems to be applied earlier than 180. i agree with angles, don't get me wrong. but getting behind me, like i said- 18elders needs the ninja smoke bomb.
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flem
i guess it isn't a secret but you seem so determined it wouldn't work whatever it is so i feel there is no reason to tell you. You don't want to answer many of my questions either. If you think of it hard enough you could probably think of something.
hua lin, - good example, i'm glad to see you don't need ninja smoke bombs either!
flem- do you do guo lo tzai? Have you ever had your punch plucked? Where is your body going? Not too difficult to get past the guy.
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18elders
the only questions of yours that i have not answered concern my profile, which as i said previously -seems logical to me since so many want to attack one another. i assume the application is useless otherwise you would say. i believe you brought it up simply to demonstrate that you have the inner knowledge where you are now, whereas WLers are being kept in the dark. so, i assume you read my previous post on angles? i have no arguement there. i do with the 180 thing though.
have i ever had my punch plucked? yes- in practice- not in free sparring
i gave the elbow to toe some thought- hook opponents kick, sweep leg, elbow strike- close?
by the way, have you been taking your meds?
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flem
your close.
yep, i've been taking my medicine, i doubled up on the dosage so i will be a happier person.
I don't think by telling who you are in your profile will make people want to attack you. People can attack you now without knowing who you are.
We may know each other but you won't give an idea of who your sifu was or where you trained?
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18elders
no, i'm not talking about verbal attacks, i'm talking about all these challenges people are so quick to issue. but back to our discussion. i replied to your scenerio with 16 hands and it is obviously going no where. but you did not respond to my lo han scenerio. if i heel kick at the end of the first pass, how is it possible for the same person to be in range to use the back side kick?( without the smoke bomb, that is!). i agree that the majority of moves are best applied against a single opponent, but i think that the changes of direction are to train one to counter multiple opponents. remember that these arts were designed around war, not simply personal duels. in short, i think that you are limiting your options, perhaps simply because of your belief in 2 mans. really, to me, the arts are a total preparation. i think even limiting our discussions to combat doesn't do justice to the arts. look at the straight kick. we learned it straight up. and later master chan does it straight and across the body- this trains both sides of the hamstring, as opposed to just one side. it is interesting how complete MA training is.
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My understanding is the original exercise was kiss-the-toe but since very few people can do that it was modified to elbow-to-toe. Kiss-the-toe is the ultimate goal of the exercise. Sorry, I don't know of any application for kiss-the-toe. My initial thought on elbow-to-toe application is that it's an elbow strike. That seems obvious. What I don't see is how a worthwhile target is laying across your hooked foot. If the hooked foot was a trip there would be no target for the elbow.
I just got a farfetched idea but it's too difficult to explain. Probably won't work anyhow but it involves hooking the foot to trip while locking opponents arm. The final position would basically be elbow-to-toe but applying a lock as you press down towards toe. Hey SaMantis, you busy?
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hua lin lao shi
have you seen thier posture? the elbow extends in the stretch while the opposite hand is extentended in the opposite direction in a hooking pose- which i have found to be superior to WL for those who cannot "kiss the toe". it is because of the rear hand and because thy tend to use a "chopping" sweep when standing, that i thought that the sweep and elbow would arrive simultaneously. if that is not it, then the extendended leg could simply trap the opponents supporting leg. in any case the elbow better land 'cause your face is right there begging to be hit.
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Chin to Toe
Not being smart, but the name is actually "Cloud Hands, Stretch the Leg" exercise. AT least how it is named in our school and other Asian school where I have seen the similar exercise.
Also, "kiss the toe" is fairly easy", after a good warm up, the actual goal to to touch your chin to the toe. Of course unless you have an unusually protruding chin bone or elongated skull. Not that mine is perfectly round.
Also, good apps to the exercise, guys. I don't think 18 elders was suggesting that these exercises are keys to fighting, though generally stating that in Martial ARts and in particularly Chinese MA, everything does have a use or application. Another prime example would be the simple exercise called "Fu Yang". Where you stand feet shoulder apart, bend waist backwards looking back and then forward looking between your legs, hands hooked in the air. Legs always locked, focusing on strengthening the lower back, stretching hams and shoulders. In appl. this is used in combo with a leg grab (grabbinb to outside of a side kick, etc.) and then hooked in such a position to pick the other man up (backwards) on one's back and throw him to the ground. Also an example of moving to one's back side with one step.
Just ffod for thought.
18 elders, the medicine is working well.
Flem, No one will pose challenges. I am getting old and frail, 18 elders is the strong, fiesty one. Obviously you have checked out our school, observant at Screema's seminar, and / or studied with TM to know the exercise. Stop by the school anytime for tea.
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Chin to Toe
Not being smart, but the name can also be called "Cloud Hands, Stretch the Leg" exercise. AT least how it is named in our school and other Asian school where I have seen the similar exercise.
Also, "kiss the toe" is fairly easy", after a good warm up, the actual goal to to touch your chin to the toe. Of course unless you have an unusually protruding chin bone or elongated skull. Not that mine is perfectly round.
Also, good apps to the exercise, guys. I don't think 18 elders was suggesting that these exercises are keys to fighting, though generally stating that in Martial ARts and in particularly Chinese MA, everything does have a use or application. Another prime example would be the simple exercise called "Fu Yang". Where you stand feet shoulder apart, bend waist backwards looking back and then forward looking between your legs, hands hooked in the air. Legs always locked, focusing on strengthening the lower back, stretching hams and shoulders. In appl. this is used in combo with a leg grab (grabbinb to outside of a side kick, etc.) and then hooked in such a position to pick the other man up (backwards) on one's back and throw him to the ground. Also an example of moving to one's back side with one step.
Just ffod for thought.
18 elders, the medicine is working well.
Flem, No one will pose challenges. I am getting old and frail, 18 elders is the strong, fiesty one. Obviously you have checked out our school, observant at Screema's seminar, and / or studied with TM to know the exercise. Stop by the school anytime for tea.
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flem
I haven't you seen thier posture so I guess I'll never get it. Even with the other arm movement I still don't see a viable target near the tripping or sweeping foot. I'll still keep kicking it around.
At the end of the first run of 18 Elbows after finishing the attacker (hook/elbow/turn/elbow/step back/block and chop to throat) you immedialtely turn and defend attack. This person cannot be the one you just finished off, even if you didn't finish him off.
Pong Lai
Kiss-the-toe may be fairly easy for you but I haven't seen many who are able to do it. I'm fairly flexable and even at my best I can't do it. Some people are long in the leg, others are long in the body. If my hip to foot is longer than my hip to head it ain't happening. At least that's what I think is part of the problem for me.
We have applications for ebay and bow so I guess it makes sense that there would be applications for everything.
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hua lin,
i'm usually in on Saturdays if you want to try an app -- sounds interesting!
I was thinking about the elbow-to-toe exercise ... I'm just now learning little mantis (yeah, I know, I'm a baby when it comes to kung fu!) ... and there's a part just after the beginning where you move from cat-stance, hook-mantis into seven-star-stance, strike-downward. The strike is supposed to be very low, perhaps against the opponent's leg?
Anyway, the move requires a bit of flexibility and seems like elbow-to-toe will improve this movement, even if the applications between exercise and stance are different. Also, in seven-star stance the foot is hooked upward (just like in elbow-to-toe), and in the move after this one you come up into golden chicken. In this transition could you hook the opponent's leg and throw him off balance as you come up?
I'm just pondering the move ... feel free to tell me if it has any merit. :)
Sam