Very nice posts, Jess. Here's my two cents:
Quote:
Originally posted by Rockwood
Daito Ryu does seem to be an important part of the equation. Also Mr. Amdur's articles point out that Aikido doesn't have any of the circle walking of Ba Gua or intricate internal mechanics of Xing Yi.
The supposedly "missing" circle walking component is actually glaringly obvious to anyone who actually does Pa Kua. The toes of the Aikidoka are always turned either in or out in Ko Bu or Bai Bu, even when steping on a linear line. I studied Gao style Pa Kua right along with Hsing-i, and while I've also been exposed to Cheng's style, I've got to say that Gao's line drills are still circular in application. In other words, depending on the relationship to the opponent, the practitioner can change direction almost instantly just by keeping the hips open and turning the foot to face the direction you want to go. Aikido's stepping patterns are identical to Gao's style except for one crucial and extremly important difference. In Aikido the steps are forward weighted, while in Ba Gua the steps are back weighted.
Quote:
Originally posted by Rockwood
Ba Gua contains many many techniques that are totally identical to Aikido. That could be coincidence, except for the fact that both depend on the Ko Bu Bai Bu/Tai No Hen Ko stepping pattern to be effective.
I no longer think it's coincidence. The movements of Pa Kua are so unique they aren't even seen in it's sister arts. Also there are many movements not present in the origional Daito Ryu, movements that would be entirely impractical for a sword weilding Samurai to use in combat. For example, Kokyu-ho is the very same movement as Phoenix spreads wings:
http://www.northbayaikido.org/images/ostatue.gif
http://www.lip.pt/~carvalho/osensei5.jpg
http://www.lijing.org/Bagua_Zhang/a_Bagua_B.gif
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...lr%3D%26sa%3DN
These are the only photos I could find demonstrating the Pa Kua technique I'm talking about. I'd like to point out that the first one is not a very good photo since her elbows are too far out to the side which disconnects her arms from her torso. John Painter does a much better job of it in my opinion, maybe the lady is a wushu competitor? The O-Sensei statue shows better technique than the lady, yet supposedly he never did Pa Kua! Compare his form to Painter's and look at the application.
Quote:
Originally posted by Rockwood
To me the essence of Ba Gua is in it's use of the simple Ko Bu Bai Bu and whole body power to create an endless multitude of spontaneuos technique. In theory, one wouldn't need Circle Walking or even Palm Changes in order to "do" Ba Gua. It is a conceptual martial art, and the forms are fluff on the surface of a very profound way of moving.
Agreed. I don't know why there is so much resistance to the idea that Aikido is related to IMA. It seems like anyone who's taken enough time to practice these arts would be able to see the extraordinary similarities. Funny thing is, when I had to relocate and find a new teacher, I checked out the two local schools that teach Hsing-i and had to discard them right off because thier bodymechanics were not correct. The Aikido dojo I train at now was the only place where I saw people actually using the full body power that IMA are noted for.
Quote:
Originally posted by Rockwood
Ueshiba had a very similar way of moving, and his Aikido is characterized by the big committed forward stepping attacks that are identical to Xing Yi's, the in/out sweeping, circular steps of Ba Gua and the full, alive, ki-filled, extended body posture that is common to both Xing Yi and Ba Gua.
Really this is the whole point for me. It dosen't matter what art you are studying. IMO it's most important that you learn the proper way to move for maximum efficency, power generation, and health benifit. Aikido can do this just as well as an IMA, as long as the teacher knows what s/he's doing. Great posts!