Groovy. Looking forward to it fa_jing.
Printable View
Groovy. Looking forward to it fa_jing.
Yeah, I guess you are right. I was always trying to weed out the BS. Working the Mook Jong made more sense to me than the normal SLT of trying to "swim on dry land."Quote:
Originally posted by yuanfen
Knifefighter- you used to do slt on the wooden dummy?
An outsider at the start!
Knifefighter
Then you cant know the value of SNT. It is way more than the movements, the movements and positioning comes second best to the main point of SNT.
MerryPrankster
No one is trying to say that we are doing something superior to everything else. We are just saying its different. There are different mechanics. I can accept you have a very indepth knowledge in grappling and other fighting arts that we cant match. Can you accept that there are things about Wing CHun that you do not yet understand?
When I tried some Judo I discovered there are different mechanics down there. I now see value in grappling that I never saw before. I cant even imagine how valuable your experience and knowledge is in this area.
I think you should expect the same thing from W.C. Be prepared to empty your cup a little.
There are things that you can do in W.C that I didnt even know were possible until I started doing it. Ive met a Tai Chi guy that blew my mind. I dont know if I want to do it as it takes a long time to get good at. But I accept that it is different and has aspects to it that I do not fully understand yet.
No it's not. I agree.Quote:
Originally posted by Merryprankster
Give them a consistent year and you're going to see something a lot more polished. Of course, it's not going to look like demo clips, but that's not exactly a realistic expectation.
I'd like to see them after one year.
So do you think they have workable techniques that are going to go great for them under real fire?
Don't know. I only saw German writing which I can't understand.Quote:
Right now, you're watching very new people to sparring, go at it. The website even said that, didn't it?
Someone mentioned they were beginners.
Hi Vicky,
Thanks for your post.
I'm told there are amateur competitions for those who want to have a go. Perhaps that would be something you could try?
About the clips:
On the site under the fightclub link, there is a video button that opens a video page. The Foto button gives the slideshow.
Quote:
Originally posted by WCis4me
Well first of all I am NO WHERE near ready to use my WC skills acquired to train for competitions. However, I definitely hope that in the next year or two I will be.
...
PS. about the clips. I am not sure I am getting the same thing up as everyone else. I am getting a slide show kind of thing. From what I saw, I don't see a lot of the WC I have learned to this point in the slide show, so I really can't say much. I can't really compare it either to others I have seen as it wouldn't be fair. They seem to be more inexperienced than most of the WC practicioners I know well.
Thanks Edmund.
Regards,
Vicky
Perhaps that's what you are saying, but crimsonking, who posted:Quote:
No one is trying to say that we are doing something superior to everything else. We are just saying its different.
Quite clearly believes that what he is doing comes from on high in an unquestionably superior form. I call bull****. I've said it once, I'll say it again: If MMA arrogance is the "wanna-be toughguy," then CMA arrogance is pure elitist snobbery.Quote:
Yes, other martial artists can be aware of these principles too - grapplers work with pressures and good strikers should have an understanding of the geometry of standup combat - but its like comparing high school with postgraduate.
Agreed! But to argue that WC is doing something drastically different than other "striking" arts is a mistake, IMO. There is a reason that grappling arts all look similar in execution--the same principles apply. Violating those principles results in not being able to execute. The arts are more similar than different because we're all working with the same template (human body). The parts we argue endlessly about are usually no more than maybe 10% different, from a kinesthetic standpoint IMO. You know that front kick you guys seem to do a bit of? Looks a lot like an MT push kick.Quote:
There are different mechanics.
Yup. But I won't accept that sparring has low value in developing fighting skill. Nor will I accept the idea that WC is "postgraduate school," when compared to other arts. Utter crap.Quote:
Can you accept that there are things about Wing CHun that you do not yet understand?
I'm not knocking WC as a fighting style. I'm knocking a particular training method (or lack of one.) All the drills and forms and technical expertise in the world won't help you if you freeze up when attacked and aren't used to what gitting hit full on feels like. And you have to KEEP at that. I've been so focused on grappling sans strikes lately, that I know I would be a bit flustered right now if somebody tried to whack me around. Oh, it comes back quick, but that's cause I've been there, done that.Quote:
I think you should expect the same thing from W.C. Be prepared to empty your cup a little.
On top of that, timing, footwork, etc are so much different with somebody actively trying to attack and defend, than just drilling. You drill to perfect body mechanics. You spar to learn to employ those body mechanics on somebody who doesn't want you to.
This doesn't surprise me a bit. I certainly know that the stuff you guys do with your hands has real value in Judo. I gripfought with a guy with a WC background not too long ago. Getting a dominant grip was brutally difficult. Nice stuff.Quote:
There are things that you can do in W.C that I didnt even know were possible until I started doing it.
I'm well aware that WC has aspects I'm not familiar with. But that doesn't mean that sparring has no value. A fight is a relationship. It's not necessarily a positive one, but it's a relationship. That means it involves two (or more) people, their actions, and reactions. I wouldn't expect a person raised in a basement, sans human contact to be socially proficient. I would expect awkwardness, maybe an outright shutdown. If you don't spar, you're the kid in the basement--you don't have the basic, practical know-how of a fighting relationship. From a self-defense perspective, there are other things that must also be done, but sparring's a pretty good test in lieu of the real thing w/respect to basic fighting skills. And I don't know about you, but I don't particularly like streetfighting. To much death and legal fees.Quote:
Ive met a Tai Chi guy that blew my mind. I dont know if I want to do it as it takes a long time to get good at. But I accept that it is different and has aspects to it that I do not fully understand yet.
FWIW, I read your experience in Karate. The black belts you were going with sounded like jerks. I might also point out that as a WC practitioner NOW, you benefit from your previous sparring experiences. You don't freeze NOW because you're used to getting whacked around a bit. A Newbie may not have that advantage and if they don't spar, they'll never learn.
When I first started wrestling, everything happened so fast. When I first started boxing, everything happened so fast. System overload. Now, with experience, 10 seconds is quite a while.
Edmund,
I'd love to see them one year later as well!
As for "do they have workable techniques?"
Right now, maybe. In a year, provided there is continued sparring frequency AND feedback, they will probably have very workable techniques.
Right now, their biggest gain is going to come from not freezing when they get whacked around and not going into system overload (everything happening in a blur) if they get into it.
Amen to that.Quote:
although 90% of doorwork is dealing with untrained drunks - other 10% can be a tricky.
the way i see it wingchun teaches certain skills that are useful for fighting.
if you wanna be good at fighting you gotta fight
if you just wanna be good at wingchun just do that.
peace
Merryprankster Wrote:
I totally agree.Quote:
A fight is a relationship. It's not necessarily a positive one, but it's a relationship. That means it involves two (or more) people, their actions, and reactions. I wouldn't expect a person raised in a basement, sans human contact to be socially proficient. I would expect awkwardness, maybe an outright shutdown. If you don't spar, you're the kid in the basement--you don't have the basic, practical know-how of a fighting relationship. From a self-defense perspective, there are other things that must also be done, but sparring's a pretty good test in lieu of the real thing w/respect to basic fighting skills.
Crimsonking Wrote:
I totally agree with that as well.Quote:
Sparring with other styles can have some value - once a certain point in training has been reached, and beyond a certain point that value is also lost. It must not be considered a primary training vehicle - but as a testing ground. Any areas needing improvement should be trained out before sparring again.
Jon synopsized it well.
Regards,
Vicky
If so, what is chi sau?Quote:
Originally posted by Merryprankster
A fight is a relationship. It's not necessarily a positive one, but it's a relationship. That means it involves two (or more) people, their actions, and reactions.
So true!...Quote:
Originally posted by crimsonking
The real problem is using sparring as a primary training vehicle, as a wing chun fighter shouldnt fight anything like 'a sparrer'.
Another problem is: Many beginners are disapointed when they can't make their Wing Chun work in sparring and they start discarding this or that technique as not effective. They think themselves as experts with their 10 months of Wing Chun and start evaluating and comparing the art to MMAs and whatever.
I know this causes some sarcastic comments but, the learning curve of Wing Chun is different from boxing or wrestling.You learn nothing in Wing Chun by getting whacked around silly.This is skillful art that demands years of patient practice to attain some relative high level,even if some real "street" effectiveness is obtainable in a relatively short times. No wonder that many will lack the proper dedication and will drift to other styles more adapted to their views about "fighting"
Everybody is free to believe what he want's. Even that sparring is the same as fighting. Or that you know "what is wrong in Wing Chun" or whatever other Red5Angel's type of idea. This will have no effect on the art and on those who like it enough to study it seriously.
Crimsonking,
Well, I don't believe you hit a point where sparring is no longer productive. What do you do in its stead? If sparring is a testing ground, at what point do you no longer need to test things? Or is there a better testing platform? If so, what is it?Quote:
Originally posted by crimsonking
Sparring with other styles can have some value - once a certain point in training has been reached, and beyond a certain point that value is also lost. It must not be considered a primary training vehicle - but as a testing ground. Any areas needing improvement should be trained out before sparring again.
I'm not really clear on how that pertains to anything I wrote, but okay.Quote:
Outside interaction is not a problem - i have had students take six months or a year out to train in boxing or judo or something - they've all come back.
Two questions: How does this multirange, full force, speed and resistance training differ from sparring? And why aren't video clips available? (Not trying to be argumentative. But have you just not got any available? Or are you saying that you won't make such clips available? Video clips would go a long way in answering question 1 for me. If I could see you're ideas in action, it would clear up a lot of things.)Quote:
We dont spar. However, we do train every range, full force, speed, resistance (blah!) and yes, the 16oz gloves come out on a regular basis - lots of boxing experience around. And, we train with real 'alive' chisao, and no video clips arent available.
Well, sparring is an abstraction. I don't think anyone's debating that. But anything less than full-out fights is an abstraction. So what makes sparring inferior to other drills? And what replaces the randomness of sparring in your training? (That takes me back to the question about the differences between what you do and sparring.)Quote:
The real problem is using sparring as a primary training vehicle, as a wing chun fighter shouldnt fight anything like 'a sparrer'.
Stuart B.
Seems to depend on how you define it here. Why don't you tell me your definition?Quote:
If so, what is chi sau?