No, I'm not suggesting that you do it ALL the time. But I am suggesting that you do it regularly and consistently.
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The human body and mind is not hardwired to do a rear cross, a kimura, a low single leg, a judo throw, an armbar, a cross side control holdown, a duck under his hook and come back with a hook of your own on his outside, a straight lead as he begins a rear roundhouse kick, etc.
These things must be learned by purposely going against certain "natural" body actions and reactions.
And while it is true to say that certain body actions that are good fighting movements are "natural", ie.- a throwing round/hook punches, regardless of how clumsy or efficient any individual might "naturally" do it....
to try and take half of this equation just outlined and ignore the other half is to play mind games with oneself and with others.
So that's the general setting, and here's the particulars for one certain troll:
While it's true that vertical wing chun punches, for example, are not natural and must be learned (through SNT/SLT elbows-in training within the first section of the form)...
and while it's true that this type of punching technique has its limitations in functionality in a live setting - this doesn't change the fact that they can be used with great efficiency in the proper setting (ie.- in close and after a line has been opened and controlled)...
regardless of whether you personally can make it work or not...
and regardless of whether or not you can make any of the WCK you've learned through the years work...
and regardless of whether or not you've turned to mma, boxing, MT, or anything else you say you've been working with as a means of getting over your frustrations.
Your limitations are not, ipso facto, everyone else's limitations. You are GREAT at trolling, though. Gotta give you that.
Anton Geesnik (sp) the famed judoka once did a seminar where he was across the hall from a dance class. He took his judoka into the dance class, and as an experiment asked the dancers to pair up, and one to lie of the floor and the other to do whatever it took to hold his partner down. Then Geesnik went around calling our the names for the various pins that were being used. The point he was making is that those things are very natural, there is only a limited way of pinning people, and you will find them just by trying to pin one another. That's how people found these things in the first place!
Or, you can speed up the process by instruction, by having someone who knows them show them to you.
If you get into a fight, and your opponent tries to pin you, it's going to look like judo or BJJ or wrestling. In other words, it is going to look like MMA.
If you try to twist someone's arm to hurt them, you'll find the kimura. If you try to kick them, you'll find the roundkick. If someone swings at you, you'll find the duckunder. These things are all very natural -- you can see little kids do them in schoolyards. They don't do them well. That's where training comes in.
You are right insofar as certain natural reactions can be easily taken advantage of -- for example, it seems natural to try and push your opponent off when he is on top of you or turning your head when he tries to hit you. But what I am talking about is using optimal body mechanics (which are hard-wired).Quote:
These things must be learned by purposely going against certain "natural" body actions and reactions.
What I am talking about is our using optimal body mechanics to perform various tasks. What that means is being able to perform at our max intensity (full-ouot, 100%). Those mechanics are obviously very natural and are hard-wired.Quote:
And while it is true to say that certain body actions that are good fighting movements are "natural", ie.- a throwing round/hook punches, regardless of how clumsy or efficient any individual might "naturally" do it....
to try and take half of this equation just outlined and ignore the other half is to play mind games with oneself and with others.
But the mechanics is just part of the picture. Another part is using those things to play the game. Playing the game involves other things.
And my view is that the WCK punch is very natural -- IF you use it in the right circumstances. As I have said before, the vertical fist is due to keeping the elbow down. Try uppercutting with your palm not facing your body! When you are attached, you find very quickly that you don't want to raise your elbow. If you do, then you either go flying or he takes your back or takes you down. So you keep your elbow down. Then when you punch, you have a "vertical" fist. Your punches also are straight (since hooks involve raising the elbow).Quote:
So that's the general setting, and here's the particulars for one certain troll:
While it's true that vertical wing chun punches, for example, are not natural and must be learned (through SNT/SLT elbows-in training within the first section of the form)...
and while it's true that this type of punching technique has its limitations in functionality in a live setting - this doesn't change the fact that they can be used with great efficiency in the proper setting (ie.- in close and after a line has been opened and controlled)...
regardless of whether you personally can make it work or not...
When you know WCK's method, the tools are very natural.
Wrong, all wrong. Most people bend over and lift with thier backs naturally. Is that optimal? No. Most people have to 'learn' to lift with thier legs and keep thier backs straight/head up. Some might figure it out over time some might not, but it's not hard-wired. And you can re-wire the brain, happens all the time. Look at people that suffer severe head trama and damage part of thier brain. Thier brains re-hardwire naturally. And this can also be done thru repetitious practice of a given activity.
As for you stupid swimming analogy, you're wrong there too. Most people, if they learn by themselves how to swim, might just get to the doggy paddle level. Is this optimal? Nope, but it's natural. So for you to say that we are designed to move optimally from birth, then there would be no need to re-wire ourselves as we do so often (in sports, in fighting, acrobatics, etc). We all aren't born to juggle, walk a tightrope, swim using a breast stroke, lift with our legs, etc. These things are learned thru repetitive practice and self re-wiring.
Yes, I agree with you JP...The Unnatural become natural through repetitious practice and diligence. To increase ones skill you have to fight and practice. A person who never fights will not be hardwired to fight effectively if he has never fought. Even fighting at high intensity is training. You are doing Anerobic training conditioning your mind and body to react effeciently at a high level.
So once again practice makes perfect!
From what I am reading of T's posts (correct me if I'm wrong T), he is saying that there is an optimal way of moving. IMO optimal is not always natural. Natural is the way you were taught to do something, not to mean that all human do things the same (the devil is in the details). Some people do things a certain way, these ways become natural to them alone depending on how much of that thing they are doing. The basic idea of how to hit a tennis ball is the same for all players (swing racket, hit ball) , but the way the individual player hits the ball is unique to them alone. What I am talking about here is timing, mechanics, set up and so forth. McEnroe and Borg were both great players, with two totally different ways to hit the ball, as both players affected the ball differently by the way the hit it. Borg’s swing produced lots of top spin which made the ball go high over the net and dip drastically after that, while bouncing high once it landed. McEnroe's shots were flatter and at times had underspin, therefore his shots were not so high above the net but were more direct in motion from his racket to the opposite side of the court. They also had totally different setups, with the same result, tennis ball hit from point A to B.
IMO WC brings someone’s natural ability to hit with their fists and feet and optimises it to become more powerful, simple & direct. Any striker from any system can learn something useful from the WC training system, as it is not about technique, but rather mechanics. Now for example, if you are constantly tensing your shoulders when you punch, you are not punching optimally. Yes you still may have good power from your shot, but it is not the best you can do, as something is holding back your full potential, plus injury can happen as well if too much shoulder is involved. WC does not tell you how to fight, or what to do when this or that attack is coming your way, it only trains your body to perform a specific physical movement at a higher than average ability level, it's physical as well as mental performance enhancement.
Instead of loading up my punch by drawing it back, I can hit from where ever the fist is, this is efficiency and directness. Simplicity is the fact that there aren't many moving parts in the punch, just a simple usage of ones legs with a connected body mechanic to produce a good punch. Our legs are already powerful from daily use, all one has to do is learn how to connect it with your upper body blows on every shot, for basic usage. The cool part is that this method has less stress on your body, because it is being optimized to produce the force in your blows as well as absorb it (receiving impact force). Again if too much shoulder is involved in your punching motion, you will injury it for sure, with possible lifetime effect, even though you are still punching somewhat hard. There’s a right way and a wrong way to do things that is T’s point IMO. It has nothing really to do with the application of the abilities WC gives one, that is a different game and has all to do with sparring.
James
again... this is so crazy. of course practicing things that would never work in real life is useless. when did i or anyone ever advocate or defend this. also, why are you talking like you know what i train will crumble at certain levels of intensity?
no argument there
no argument here again.
this is another example of you arguing against ghosts.
although you may say low intensity and drills have its place, you poo poo any vid that doesnt show two people going bananas on each other.
you also poo poo fundamental WC principles and poo poo WC as a whole and then say that WC is your primary art
while the judoka example sounds impressive you are over generalizing and trying to make a solid rule out of a few examples.
you know what is another natural reaction when some projectile is coming at your face? to close your eyes and to lean back. im sure oyu have seen unskilled fighters leaning back and flailing their arms at each other.
not every natural reaction is a good one and not all styles of fighting will be the same under a real situation
The point is to take the most optimal way of doing something and make it as natural as possible.
Of course certain artificial activities will not be natural, but if we can take a natural movement, like the flinch instinct, and build a combative action from it, it will be all the more effective.
Okay. I utilize the flinch instinct with a cover. I train my flinch to automatically through up a cover hand when I am off guard. Its not natural to parry this way but it can become natural.
But I would love to hear how do you build a combative acticon from flinching???
Is it through high intensitiy fighting? Or low intense drilling?
I used the flinch as an example, unlike you puny mortals, I have no flinch reflex :D
On a serious note, you first must see what your flinch reflex is, we all have different ones, then see how to make it combative, then drill it with low intensity, then up the drill to full intensity and then train it in full contact sparring.
Just like you do with anything new you are adding to your arsenal.
I get what your saying here. Maybe a example of this from my own experience is during lap sao. When someone goes for a body shot my flinch instinct is to drop my elbow and try to block it. Basically I'm chasing his hands. Just last night I was working on this with a training partner and the correct response to someone taking their hand away to try a body shot on you is for you to feel that loss of connection and go right to punching him first. Your hand will be faster because it's closer. Hopefully I explained that right.
You can train yourself to have different flinch responses to things. Take playing catch for example. When a child first starts to play catch their first reponse is to duck away from the ball. After awhile their frist response will just be to put their glove up. This isn't natural and it takes some time to teach the body this new response.
i agree i am all for it. but his whole point was that all fighting is going to look the same because we all move in the same way due to the natural hard wiring of our brains and evolution etc.
my point was that yes we might have some natural reactions based on our natural reflexes and what we think fighting is supposed to look lke, but training will overcome that and if you train to fight a certain way not all fighting from all styles will be the same thing