Wing chun long, medium, or short range sparring?

I started this thread from the "On why I think Hendrik is on to something." thread in order to get away from bashing one another and get back to some real productive discussion on training aspects of the wck system. If I was Gene Ching, I would have two separate wing chun sub forums. One on wck politics and wck agendas and the other one on productive wck training aspects discussion.

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Originally Posted by KPM

I don't feel that sparring is the "be all and end all" that some make it out to be. I DO believe that sparring is an important part of a training program and everyone should take part at times. But, like Chi Sau, I also think sparring can be over-done and over-emphasized. Some important aspects of Wing Chun just aren't going to come out in a sparring scenario. So if someone is over-emphasizing sparring and not really training their Wing Chun as it was designed to be trained, then they are going to be missing a lot of elements.

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I agree! Both sparring and chi sao develop different attributes which contributes to overall self defense training. The main goals of Wing chun sparring should should focus on developing awareness of controlling distance and timing. While the main goals of chi sao should focus on controlling and disrupting the opponent's center of balance.

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Originally Posted by KPM

What works in sparring is kickboxing. Its has been my experience that the more emphasis and time spent on sparring the more and more the people doing it start to look like kickboxing. This is because basic kickboxing is what works! So people begin to naturally adapt what they are doing to be more and more like kickboxing...whether they are doing it consciously or not. Their structure and technique starts to change if they are not really working to train their Wing Chun and retain it. Heck, just look at just about any classic martial art that puts on the gloves and steps into the ring. Where are all the cool techniques from their forms? Why is it you can't tell the Hung Ga guy from the TKD guy? Its because they all resort to some adaptation of kickboxing. Because THAT is what works in THAT scenario!

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In regards to long and medium range sparring, I believe after years of investigation in various kung fu systems, western fencing and boxing Bruce Lee came to this conclusion as well. So we don't have to re invent the wheel, he has already done the ground work for us. Wing chun sparring doesn't have to look like kickboxing if you know how to use your footwork with angling with proper awareness of timing and distancing.

IMHO,

You need the follow as a prerequisite for your discussion

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/...52#post1270352

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Originally Posted by Hendrik

IMHO,

You need the follow as a prerequisite for your discussion

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/...52#post1270352

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...Or you could just shoot me. Please.

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Originally Posted by Grumblegeezer

...Or you could just shoot me. Please.

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Make sure there is a spare bullet for me...........

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Originally Posted by kung fu fighter

I agree! Both sparring and chi sao develop different attributes which contributes to overall self defense training. The main goals of Wing chun sparring should should focus on developing awareness of controlling distance and timing. While the main goals of chi sao should focus on controlling and disrupting the opponent's center of balance.

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I do not like the term self defense training because that is not what we are doing. Yes you can use the skills and conditioning that you get from training in a martial art in self defense situations but what you are doing is learning a martial art or fighting method and it is up to you how you use it or don't. This idea what we do is only for street is BS and comes from the people afraid to spar.

The objective of sparring in any striking type art is to practice using your art against someone fighting you back since when you really fight in self defense or in sport or in the gym or whatever you will use that developed ability called skill. Awareness distance timing and all the rest come from trying to use your art against some one fighting you back.

Every martial art has drills and exercises outside of sparring to practice and sharpen the tools of that art. Chi sau is both to learn and sharpen our tools. Sharpening and using the tool are two different things.

Here's the thing any person who has gone through the process of training to fight will KNOW what sparring is for how important it is and so forth. You do not see on a boxing forum or a bjj forum people arguing about whether to spar or how useful it is or why you do it and so forth because everyone in those arts is DOING it and they know.

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In regards to long and medium range sparring, I believe after years of investigation in various kung fu systems, western fencing and boxing Bruce Lee came to this conclusion as well. So we don't have to re invent the wheel, he has already done the ground work for us. Wing chun sparring doesn't have to look like kickboxing if you know how to use your footwork with angling with proper awareness of timing and distancing.

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Try looking at it this way there is no such thing as wing chun sparring in the first place. There is only sparring or to put it another way you trying to use your skills against someone fighting you back.

You think this should look a certain way. Why? Is it because you are sparring and not with wing chun guys this is critical and it looks a certain way or because you have an academic arm chair idea you would like to believe?

I think what the people who gave trained in wing chun and who spar with non wing chun people will tell you is that how sparring looks will depend on what you permit or exclude in the sparring and not the art you use. If you only allow stand up fist fighting it will look like boxing, if you allow punches and kicks it will look like kick boxing, if you allow punches kicks and clinch it will look like Muay Thai, if you allow punches and kicks and clinch and ground it will look like mma. It does not depend on your art. That is the reality of fighting.

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Originally Posted by kung fu fighter

While the main goals of chi sao should focus on controlling and disrupting the opponent's center of balance.
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I agree that one of the main things you want to do in chi sau is try to control and disrupt your partners cog. We do this in YKS wing chun. The thing is we are not going to control or disrupt our opponents cog in fighting so why do we practice doing it in chi sau? I learned the answer and it goes back to what I said chi sau is for that is to sharpen our skills. By having our partner constantly trying to disrupt and control our structure or cog we sharpen our structure and get better at maintaining it no matter what our opponent does. So the purpose of doing that in chi sau is to sharpen our structure. Is it surprising that having some one press pull jerk twist and so forth you would give you better structure than some one who isn't used to that?

Thanks for the reply T,

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Originally Posted by tc101

The objective of sparring in any striking type art is to practice using your art against someone fighting you back since when you really fight in self defense or in sport or in the gym or whatever you will use that developed ability called skill. Awareness distance timing and all the rest come from trying to use your art against some one fighting you back.

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Yes I agree, I refer to this as resistance training. This is absolutely crucial to make your skills functional and alive in real time. Everything is my training is done with resistance training after the basics are mastered whether it is chi sao or full contact sparring.

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Originally Posted by tc101

If you only allow stand up fist fighting it will look like boxing, if you allow punches and kicks it will look like kick boxing, if you allow punches kicks and clinch it will look like Muay Thai, if you allow punches and kicks and clinch and ground it will look like mma. It does not depend on your art. That is the reality of fighting.

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I disagree! Maybe this applies to the way how you spar, but it does not necessarily applies for every wck practioner. For example When i spar whether it's with a boxer, muai thai fighter or MMA fighter, One can still see the principles and tools of wing chun being applied. but more importantly wck way of adjusting distance with intercepting timing (jeet), even though it might not look like doing chi sao, one can clearly see the basics being applied. I used my wck game to shut down my opponent's game, i don't play the same game as him because he would have the advantage. And I am not the only one who can do this, one of my kung fu brother used it very successfully in international championship level full contact fighting as well as myself and a couple of my students.

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Originally Posted by kung fu fighter

I disagree! Maybe this applies to the way how you spar, but it does not necessarily applies for every wck practioner. For example When i spar whether it's with a boxer, muai thai fighter or MMA fighter, One can still see the principles and tools of wing chun being applied. but more importantly wck way of adjusting distance with intercepting timing (jeet), even though it might not look like doing chi sao, one can clearly see the basics being applied. I used my wck game to shut down my opponent's game, i don't play the same game as him because he would have the advantage. And I am not the only one who can do this, one of my kung fu brother used it very successfully in international championship level full contact fighting as well as myself and a couple of my students.

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I agree with you Navin. Even though T accuses everyone else of "idle speculation" I think it is pretty obvious that he is the one speculating here. (At least going by what you quoted. I have him on "ignore" status) Because if he trained his Wing Chun effectively and spent less time sparring, he could retain his Wing Chun in sparring and it wouldn't just look like kickboxing.

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Originally Posted by kung fu fighter

I disagree! Maybe this applies to the way how you spar, but it does not necessarily applies for every wck practioner. For example When i spar whether it's with a boxer, muai thai fighter or MMA fighter, One can still see the principles and tools of wing chun being applied. but more importantly wck way of adjusting distance with intercepting timing (jeet), even though it might not look like doing chi sao, one can clearly see the basics being applied. I used my wck game to shut down my opponent's game, i don't play the same game as him because he would have the advantage. And I am not the only one who can do this, one of my kung fu brother used it very successfully in international championship level full contact fighting as well as myself and a couple of my students.

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When I see Orr or Obasi or Rick Spain fight I see wing chun also.

I'd love to see what you do. Why don't you put it up?

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Originally Posted by tc101

When I see Orr or Obasi or Rick Spain fight I see wing chun also. I'd love to see what you do. Why don't you put it up?

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Your comments here and earlier on this thread seem to relate to something I posted yesterday on one of Hendrick's threads regarding "convergent evolution". Basically, the idea is this -- large predatory fish fighting for survival in the ocean end up looking something like this:
http://www.destinationspoint.com/wp-...lciformis-.jpg


Now let some furry, air-breathing mammals move into the same ocean for millions or years, competing for survival and they end up looking like this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...he_Red_Sea.jpg

In other words, they look pretty darned similar.

So, by the same token if you put a kick-boxer, a Muay Thai fighter or a WC guy in the same environment i.e. a ring with the same rule-set, the survivors will evolve to look pretty darned similar. And that's exactly what we see when we watch Alan Orr's guys, like Josh Kaldani fight.

But if you look a bit deeper, beneath the superficial appearances, a shark is a cartilaginous fish with gills and a dolphin is an air breathing mammal. If you look with a discerning eye, their different origins are obvious. The same is true of the few WC guys who have adapted to the ring or cage. Under the surface, they still show many WC attributes. In other words, the dolphin is still a mammal no matter how it looks.

Then there are those who say "No way!. If I don't see fur, and at least legs for gawd's sake, it ain't no mammal in my book!"

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Originally Posted by KPM

I agree with you Navin. Even though T accuses everyone else of "idle speculation" I think it is pretty obvious that he is the one speculating here. (At least going by what you quoted. I have him on "ignore" status) Because if he trained his Wing Chun effectively and spent less time sparring, he could retain his Wing Chun in sparring and it wouldn't just look like kickboxing.

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I have one thing to contribute here. We were discussing the live rolling styles of a couple of famous BJJ practitioners lately - Jeff Glover, and Saulo Ribeiro. Both approach the game differently. Different philosophy, different strategy, different things they look for in setups. However, to a beginner watching them compete or train, they would probably conclude they trained together coming up. Why? Because aspects of how they flow rolling look very similar in a live scenario. Of course they never trained together coming up, and have different styles upon investigation.

My point is if what you are focused on is only external shapes, you will miss everything beneath those shapes.

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Originally Posted by Grumblegeezer

Your comments here and earlier on this thread seem to relate to something I posted yesterday on one of Hendrick's threads regarding "convergent evolution". ]

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Good analogies GG. The environment leads to convergent evolution. I noted in another thread that if you are in a competitive sparring situation in a ring, what works for survival is some sort of kickboxing. So if your main focus in training is that sparring environment, then your method is going to evolve into a version of Wing Chun kickboxing. So if you want to retain as much of your original Wing Chun as possible and not end up with a form of kickboxing, then one has to make sure your training doesn't over-emphasize competitive ring sparring and still has plenty of classical Wing Chun training elements. That's my position. I'm not saying that sparring is not valuable or important. Just that it can be over-emphasized. Again, if the main environment you are preparing for is a competitive ring with protective gear and rules, then "convergent evolution" is going to produce a martial art adapted for that environment. And that martial art, while effective in that environment, may not be the Wing Chun that you started with. That's not necessarily a bad thing. But that's also not necessarily "classical" Wing Chun because classical or traditional Wing Chun was not designed for or developed within that environment. And not all of us see our Wing Chun as primarily intended for that environment. And those that do, should not look down their noses at those of us that don't and call us "idle speculators." I spar. But I don't not see my Wing Chun as primarily a "sparring art." Nor is my particular Wing Chun well-adapted to being a "sparring art" for that reason. Nor do I feel the need to adapt it to that environment. And, anticipating the responses this is going to get, I will say that the "combative" or "self defense" environment is NOT the same as that "sparring environment." Skill and attributes developed in the sparring environment will certainly cross over to a combative environment, but sparring is not the "be all and end all" gold standard for my Wing Chun. Maybe it is for someone else's. But not for mine. But that's just my opinion, and I express it again here simply because I liked your analogies and thought they were very appropriate. But lest I be compared to the mantra man, I will leave this topic now that I have described my position on more than one thread recently.

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Originally Posted by KPM

Good analogies GG. The environment leads to convergent evolution. I noted in another thread that if you are in a competitive sparring situation in a ring, what works for survival is some sort of kickboxing. So if your main focus in training is that sparring environment, then your method is going to evolve into a version of Wing Chun kickboxing. So if you want to retain as much of your original Wing Chun as possible and not end up with a form of kickboxing, then one has to make sure your training doesn't over-emphasize competitive ring sparring and still has plenty of classical Wing Chun training elements. That's my position. I'm not saying that sparring is not valuable or important. Just that it can be over-emphasized. Again, if the main environment you are preparing for is a competitive ring with protective gear and rules, then "convergent evolution" is going to produce a martial art adapted for that environment. And that martial art, while effective in that environment, may not be the Wing Chun that you started with. That's not necessarily a bad thing. But that's also not necessarily "classical" Wing Chun because classical or traditional Wing Chun was not designed for or developed within that environment. And not all of us see our Wing Chun as primarily intended for that environment. And those that do, should not look down their noses at those of us that don't and call us "idle speculators." I spar. But I don't not see my Wing Chun as primarily a "sparring art." Nor is my particular Wing Chun well-adapted to being a "sparring art" for that reason. Nor do I feel the need to adapt it to that environment. And, anticipating the responses this is going to get, I will say that the "combative" or "self defense" environment is NOT the same as that "sparring environment." Skill and attributes developed in the sparring environment will certainly cross over to a combative environment, but sparring is not the "be all and end all" gold standard for my Wing Chun. Maybe it is for someone else's. But not for mine. But that's just my opinion, and I express it again here simply because I liked your analogies and thought they were very appropriate. But lest I be compared to the mantra man, I will leave this topic now that I have described my position on more than one thread recently.

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This is sort of throw back thinking. There is no such thing as a sparring art or street fighting art. That sort of thinking has been shown through the Gracie challenges and early vale tudo and early UFC to be mistaken.

Sparring is nothing more than a process of taking your art whatever it is and practicing trying to use it against some one really fighting you back and from that developing better and better ability at using your art. The only people who still argue against it are the throw backs who refuse to spar.

Sparring is not the end all be all in boxing and it isn't in wing chun. That's like saying practice is the end all be all. The thing is sparring is the means not the end.

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Originally Posted by tc101

This is sort of throw back thinking. There is no such thing as a sparring art or street fighting art. That sort of thinking has been shown through the Gracie challenges and early vale tudo and early UFC to be mistaken.

Sparring is nothing more than a process of taking your art whatever it is and practicing trying to use it against some one really fighting you back and from that developing better and better ability at using your art. The only people who still argue against it are the throw backs who refuse to spar.

Sparring is not the end all be all in boxing and it isn't in wing chun. That's like saying practice is the end all be all. The thing is sparring is the means not the end.

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For all of repetition and 'mantra' beating people accuse you of (my self included at times haha), it's hard to argue with what you are saying above. :) Maybe those that dislike hearing the above statements are the most threatened by it as it goes against the beliefs they've built for themselves?

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Originally Posted by JPinAZ

For all of repetition and 'mantra' beating people accuse you of (my self included at times haha), it's hard to argue with what you are saying above. :) Maybe those that dislike hearing the above statements are the most threatened by it as it goes against the beliefs they've built for themselves?

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For the record. I won't argue with T in what you quoted either. Because for once he defined "sparring" as Sparring is nothing more than a process of taking your art whatever it is and practicing trying to use it against some one really fighting you back and from that developing better and better ability at using your art.

By that definition, the "progressive training" or "progressive sparring" I talked about elsewhere fits with what T is saying, whether either of you are willing to acknowledge it or not. This includes the scenario training I described from Krav Maga. But since you haven't acknowledged anything I have had to say on the topic so far, I expect you will disagree with me. But I put it out there for anyone following along with any interest in the topic.