From my research , teachings, and practice I have found that CMA does have groundwork . What does everyone think about the existance of CMA groundwork? Not as sport but as an actual application of the material that we are taught.
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From my research , teachings, and practice I have found that CMA does have groundwork . What does everyone think about the existance of CMA groundwork? Not as sport but as an actual application of the material that we are taught.
CMA groundwork is based on the assumption that if you fall down, the other guy will not follow you to the ground to wrestle. So, it's mostly attacks from the ground targeting a standing opponent, or movements to devised to get back on your feet as quickly as possible once you hit the ground.
Or, in an even worse trend, CMA guys with no clue as to how technical groundfighting is watch the UFC too much and figure they know how to fight on the ground when the guy follows him or falls with him, or imitates ground and pound by jumping on top of him, and they end up brawling on the floor, whereas a controlled and calm BJJ guy would make mincemeat out of him without breaking a sweat.
That's my experience anyways. I remember in that first little bit of BJJ I was introduced to by a very good BJJ school, the black belts (2 of 'em in that class) would trounce you in a second, and they'd be so calm, whereas I and the other beginners were huffing and puffing with even the blue belts. You learn how technical it is very quickly. And untrained CMA guys just seem to imitate, with no strategy whatsoever, and therefore pretty much sucks on the ground. Not all of 'em. But most of what I've seen.
I learned some maneuvers on the ground in CMA. Never have someone to practice them with, and never had detailed instruction in how to employ them....so they're pretty much useless. My assessment is pretty much MK's, but I'm not as experienced, so maybe my opinion isn't as well informed.
I fell into that trap before I cross-trained a little in BJJ (very briefly), and then realized I had no friggin' clue what I was doing afterwards. So I stopped that bad habit right away--aiming for the ground. I started trying to keep on my feet when those other guys go for sloppy takedowns and such, to punish them. But when I hit the floor, I try to use the basics I learned (or, didn't learn), and treat it like a learning experience, just to get the feel of it.
I do not believe that this is correct. It just does not fall into accordance with Chinese philosophies.
If kung fu is well rounded and is based on Taoist yinyang principle then there would be many combinations. yang yang or both standing( greater yang ), yin yang one grounded and one standing ( lesser yin), yang yin one standing and one grounded (lesser yang ), or yin yin both grounded (greater yin).
This is the greater and lesser aspects of yinyang principle.
The combinations of yin yang or yang yin would be determined by which of the fighters was the weaker or stronger one on the ground or standing up.
The art I study has ground fighting. It is not similar to BJJ but it is there. It is based on takedown defense, and striking from the bottom position, with some sweeps thrown in. There is also strikes from one's back at a standing opponent that is trying to get on top of you.
Further, we have takedowns and trips that utilize the mount and especially side-control with arm locks and striking. Often times the best way to neutralize someone is to take them down, bind them up, and subdue them. Utilizing the ground or a wall is very ideal for the application of any type of joint lock and so we train in that aspect as well.
It's your fruity theory, you do the explaining.
I do not understand how it is that many CMArtist can say that their art has no ground fighting other than what they bring into it from other styles . The philosophical principles, if applied to the art properly, proves that it does.
I would have to say that it is a lost or extinct aspect of the art for the most part.
How can animal styles not have ground work ??? Most animals are on all fours or on their bellies. It just does not make sense.
Not failing to mention the internal styles of Ba Gua Zhang , Tai Ji Quan , and Xin Yi Quan.
All these arts work with spheres and /or parts of spheres. If you know anything about these arts you know that you are walking in and out and around a sphere.
Why would/ do you think these same techniques can not /do not work on the ground??
If you say that they use only circular movements and not spherical movements then you are only thinking in a limited dimension world. Which is not reality.
They are multi-dimensional and work on all three planes of motion.
Your axis( spine ), dan tien( center of gravity ) appendages, brain, organs, etc ( tools) are in the same place whether you are standing or on the ground.
I think CMA doesn't do groundfighting in the usual modern sense. Small joint manipulation doesn't count, nowadays. Sure, a groundfighter will say: I can manipulate your joints, too. But that's just like a CMA'ist saying: hey, I can brawl like a brute on the ground, too. They're ****ed good at getting large joint manipulations that would end a fight with more permanence (armbars, knee locks, ankle locks, etc), but a good finger lock or finger bite is highly underrated, and opens up a very good weakness to exploit.:D They're faster, and if you're good, you can control the body with the smallest part. Plus, many groundfighters will leave these parts and weaknesses wide open (it is true, and I have seen it firsthand many times). Unfortunately, I didn't have a camera on hand to videotape those classes and sessions.
Where small joint manipulation is allowed, a good ground CMAist could break a hand, finger, or wrist pretty quickly. It would pretty much derail the groundfight.
I think it's the difference in waging a war of attrition (small, cripppling damages) vs. a war of complete and utter surrender (armbar). IF you can do both, you're 10X better.
My CMA teacher once demonstrated many groundfighting techniques he could change into (all of them submission based, including armbars, etc.) from a common wrist lock that's pretty easy to apply. All of it was CMA. I was pretty much screwed from the moment the small joint-lock was in place.
Small joint manipulation...sheesh.
We aren't talking about techniques or joint locks. If you think ground fighting is only about the lock, then you know nothing about ground fighting at all.
Positional dominance and transitions are the main components of fighting on the ground. Without position, you cannot lock someone or hold them down.
CMA DOES NOT HAVE a method for training positional dominance or transitions from less dominant to more dominant positions, and without position, you cannot get a submission.
Disagree? Show me a pure CMA technique to pass the guard.
You watch too many movies.Quote:
Where small joint manipulation is allowed, a good ground CMAist could break a hand, finger, or wrist pretty quickly. It would pretty much derail the groundfight.
Not in the sense of too almost naked men rolling on the ground for long periods of time!!:rolleyes:LMAO
Well CMA has Large Sphere Chin na (shoulders, hips and torso) , Medium Sphere Chin Na( elbows, knees, and neck), and Small Sphere Chin Na ( wrist , ankles , fingers and toes). Although most CMArtist where shoes. So you will probably never use or practice those ones.:D( refering to the toe ones!!!
These can be applied on all three planes of motion. CMA is spherical and dynamic and not linear and static( at least not in fighting) and is constantly moving and changing.
Nor am I . CMA does not have training for postitional dominance or transitions from less or more dominant positions?? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
What CMA have you been learning...... Keyboard kung fu ?? Modern Wu Shu?? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
You have no clue.
Pure CMA technique for passing the guard ?? What the hell does that mean??? I can use plenty of "pure CMA techinques to pass the guard "....
you my friend are ....
Clueless
Look, MK, I agree with you on positional dominance, guard, and transition. But you have to often sacrifice protection from small joint manipulation in order to get that kind of position or leverage. A good BJJ guy can trap my hands and render them immobile. But sometimes, even against the black belts I rolled with for like 5 seconds before they pinned me or submitted me (hahaha, but true), I knew I could grab that finger on my lapel instead of grabbing the wrist, and wrenched that sucker till it broke. It would keep him from grabbing me with that hand, or punching me with it (if BJJ had strikes). All I'm saying is that a good chin-na guy could do what I can do infinitely better.
BTW, there was a dude there with one arm that was severed at the elbow, and he was awesome, because he had mastered using leverage. But if I broke his one good hand, he'd be ****ed.
Show me.Quote:
Pure CMA technique for passing the guard ?? What the hell does that mean??? I can use plenty of "pure CMA techinques to pass the guard "....
In fact, how about a clip of you demonstrating?
And all the Chin Na in the world is useless without a system for training positional dominance, which CMA does not have because it was never the focus of Chinese systems in the first place.Quote:
All I'm saying is that a good chin-na guy could do what I can do infinitely better..
OK, and please explain which form you trained these positions in, and demonstrate the form. Also, I'm sure you have the Chinese expressions for "full guard," "butterfly guard," and "half-guard" at your disposal, since you will be showing pure CMA techniques designed to escape these positions.
well, this is the funniest thread ive read through in a while. keep going, very interested to see those clips... lol
I believe Masterkiller is right on the money. It's "culturally" not preferrable (ungentleman like behavior) to wrestle a down opponent. There is no binding "philosophies" to say that TCMA should not or thou shalt not ground fight using TCMA. However, there isn't yet a TCMA style that have developed a proficient ground fighting (positional dominance) methodology. Most styles have something as Masterkiller have said pop up from the ground, ground kicks, or ground & pound. There are some rudimentary side control/knee on belly esque and primitive mount stuff but not enough to rival BJJ ground grappling specialist IMHO.
I also believe that it is a gross misuse of the Yinyang principle here. Yinyang and Wuxing theories, or worldview of Yijing (classic of change) for that matter, can definitely be applied in groundfighting. But that's for people who are interested in more advanced academic pursuit once they have a solid working knowledge of ground fight (positional dominance with submission skill). It is not as superficial as outlined I would caution. It doesn't really help to mystify both fighting and philosophical work even if it is possible to consolidated as one IMHO.
Just a thought
Mantis108
The principles of stand up fighting with taijiquan can easily be applied to ground fighting, epecially when you are on the bottom, whether on your back or not.
In taijiquan, the maximum number of things you do is absorption, redirection and attack. In many styles, like krav maga, western boxing, etc. you are taught to sidestep the attack and then, attack. Well, when you're on your back, you can't sidestep, but you can redirect an attack and then, attack, wether your attacker is on the ground with you or still upright when you're on the ground.
Ba Gua Zhang alone to prove that CMA has groundwork. I will use the philosophical , psychological and the physiological aspects of Taoism to prove what should already be known to the practitioners and masters of this art.
.....By the way, there is nothing mystical about it.
I could also use ground dragon , monkey, and many other styles.
Yin /yang principle can be used to describe all the dual aspects of our existence.
Standup fighting / groundfighting. Real basic ,not too hard to figure out, and is exactly how it is used.
I am truelly amazed about the fact that this aspect of the art is soooooo lost or unheard of by all of you.
Guess your schools do not teach the 3 "p's" of the arts. The philosophy of Taoism alone rules the Internal arts.
This is tooo funny.
Notice, however, you droll naysayers, how poorly that same submission wrestler fared in a full contact tournament against a stand-up Chinese martial artist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1A7ecS7rs0
.....and look at the symbols that represent Taoism, Tai Ji , Xin Yi ,and Bagua. Those are the strategic patterns used in all Chinese "Kung Fu". They are not two dimensional. They are MULTI -DIMENSIONAL. Explore the quantum mind and you will know the TRUTH.
A right angle is a right angle no matter which plane you are on .......XYZ!!
Saying you can take stand-up principles and apply them on the ground (which is wrong, anyway) is not the same as having a ground fighting system.
tatooedmonk
I think just about anyone who knows what they are talking about is lauging at you right now.
In the book Chinese Fast Wrestling, Liang Shou Yu shows a guard pass that would result in the guard passer being caught in a triangle.
It was a good effort, but he didn't discuss the detail that you need to pin the opposite leg down when passing.
Have you ever rolled with wrestlers, bjjers, judoka, samboists, etc., ? I really doubt it.
Oh so now you can see all and know all by a few posts and a thread or two?? Give it a rest. And yes I have and I **** them off everytime.
You all have to stop thinking with in the box of what it is known to the outside world . I bet dollars to donuts that you are a keyboard martial artist and /or a hobbyist.