Anybody here know much about playing Push Hands?
I guess it comes from Tai Chi? There is a practice and a competition format?
What exactly are the rules? Can you pull as well as push?
thanks
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Anybody here know much about playing Push Hands?
I guess it comes from Tai Chi? There is a practice and a competition format?
What exactly are the rules? Can you pull as well as push?
thanks
lol. If you couldn't pull it would be a pretty stupid "game". :DQuote:
What exactly are the rules? Can you pull as well as push?
No real set rules. There's sort of a loose format but the only time there are specific rules is for competitions. As a training exercise the "rules" such as they are are kind of unwritten.
The most simple form is single hand which is where you and your partner just touch at the wrists and describe a circle in the air. Whenever you think the other person is vulnerable you can try to push them in the chest or pull them past behind you or otherwise throw then off balance. IMO, single hand push is actually the highest level of training. It's considered the most introductory because of its simplicity but I find that because the format is so limited, it really highlights some very taiji specific skills. When you go to the 2 hand or even freestyle format, it looks a lot more "fighty" but it also allows you to rely more on stuff that has nothing to do with Taijiquan.
Here's some pretty good looking single hand pushing:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTIyOTk0MjQ=.html
http://video.sina.com.cn/v/b/14430209-1331519420.html
2 hand pushing:
http://video.sina.com.cn/v/b/14426517-1331519420.html
In this pattern, you have more to work with than just relaxation, roundness and redirection. You need to learn to habitually check your opponents elbow and wrist and the door is opened up for all sorts of throws and arm-locks. People add different footwork patterns and variations until you get something that looks like it would be at home in any MMA gym:
Chen Bing teaching freestyle suitable for cage fighting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5NIfrnJs
Here's a pretty nice step-by-step breakdown of many of the moves in a more formal way. The guy in the cage, Chen Bing, is using almost entirely stuff learned initially in a style sort of like this clip which features his own teacher (and family relation too) Chen Xiaowang:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XODUxMTg4NTI=.html
Yeah I can answer for you. Push hands comes from Tai Chi yes, there are patterns, with set movements that teach you to stick and listen and nutrilize and some other skills that are specific to tai chi, Then there is free style, which might come to a surprise that alot of tai chi an internal practioners don't even practice. This comes in the form of fixed step, restricted step and moving push hands.
In fixed step you take a stance and can't move you feet. if a play makes you move or lose your balance he got you, ristricted step is the same ,but you can do one shuffle step foward and one shuffle step backward, In a tournament, they have this format, i have done 3 of this kind,and 1 minute each side left and right, with time out for point calling, a match takes about 4 minutes, her is me doing this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nibKCMtayZM . you can't grab in push hands, you can kind of cup the hand without using the thumb or use a thumb index open finger control,but no closed finger grabs.
Moving is like sumo match. also no grabbing. It is very strenuous to play this game, and I once tore ligaments in my knee doing this kind of pushing in a tournament. The short comming are, you can't grab, usally can't sweep or throw. To be honest since I got into Judo and shuai jiao, i have pretty much given up push hand, why restrict yourself in such a way. I like being able to say put on a jacket an go do what you can to get me down. Not teach don't do this, stop when you do this. do only this.
That is a totally western phenomenon.Quote:
The short comming are, you can't grab, usally can't sweep or throw. To be honest since I got into Judo and shuai jiao, i have pretty much given up push hand, why restrict yourself in such a way.
Check out the link I posted above of Chen Bing teaching freestyle push hands to what look like MMA students.
Or check out this fairly tame comp in China:
http://v.ku6.com/show/OjedUm000-PeN2K7.html
In China the rules are usually just that you can't grab (as you described) buy you can hook. You usually can't hook the neck or use your hands to hook the legs but legs attacking legs have been in almost every comp I've watched. In Chinese push hands comps, thowing and sweeping are as common as rice is at the lunch table.
[QUOTE=omarthefish;1036707]That is a totally western phenomenon.
intersting, cause i have been living and training in china for over 4 years now:)
Have friends VERY into push hands, and the rules range widely from event to event. In fact, in helping them get ready it's a major pain
I guess our experiences just differ. I've been living and training in China for 10 years now.
I guess coach Ross summed it up best. Event vary wildly which is why I initially posted that:I've never seen fixed step competition over here. Just seen it on youtube. Most of what I have seen looked little different from Shuai Jiao competitions.Quote:
No real set rules. There's sort of a loose format but the only time there are specific rules is for competitions.
In my training with Shifu almost everything goes. Sweeps, throws, hooking the legs or neck. Only grabbing is off limits although you are always welcome to try but that just gets you joint locked in a real painful way. But that's training, not competition. In training there's no real "rules" because the goal is different. The goal is more abstract. The goal is to "apply Taiji principles and techniques in a non-cooperative format". If both parties are really sticking to Taijiquan in a strict way, the result is push-hands, push hands that includes pushing, pulling, sweeping, throwing, locking, knee strikes, some punching and lots of locking. The most distinctive aspect is that there is continual contact between parties. It ends up being a bit like the legal definition of porn. In the words of Former Justice of the Supreme Court Potter Stewart:
lol :DQuote:
"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced…but I know it when I see it…
in my experience i have seen nothing but patterns an a goofy semi free style exercise. i haven't really been looking though. and i did push freestyle with my current teacher for about 5 minutes one time ,and that was fun.
so he quit cause of his shoulder???? after all that i was happy to see the two teamates(they were teamates ya?) go against eachother and how low they got on eachother im thinking, oh this might take a minute... then he quit... too bad...
anyways, the throws and sweeps were nice, very subtle and gentle for the most part... but those pushes, omg, thats ill... i would love to feel what thats like on the recieving end... ive done push hands, but im not that good at it... i only started learning yang forms recently... something to work towards forsure...
so if thats a "tame" event, show me a rough and brutal one... please?
these examples are amazing...
do they react that way, the whole jump up and down shaking their hand, because they were shocked? like the healers can do? it doesnt look like your average reaction from being pushed... like chen bing pushes, you go flying into a wall... this chicca pushes and you jump up and down like u hit ur finger with a hammer??? whats the deal there...
i love the chen bing vids tho, he's going up against guys that can actually grapple, and you can see they cant push or pull him, despite the huge weight difference, then he sends them into the wall...
im convinced of chi thru personal experiences, but you gotta understand how somebody would look at this and think its fake, or the guys are taking dives to make the other look good... i would love to feel this myself...
as in, you breathe in and out, your nerves conduct electrical impulses to your muscles and other structures, your connective tissue system creates body-wide continuity of ground reaction force, your heart pumps blood out to the perifery, your venus and lymphatic system return fliud to the core, your metabolism generates heat, your digestive system converts food to energy, your endocrine system operates under various circadian rhythms and your autonomic nervous system mediates your stress and relaxation responses? well, yes, that would be a "personal experience";
there is nothing encompassing the metaphor of "chi" that does not occur within the normal function of human physiology; it is therefore not something to be convinced of, or demonstrated as some "force' beyond that; it is not some "separate", "other", "special" thing that you shoot out of your fingertips; "chi" is a metaphorical descriptor for the normal function of the human organism that was developed in absence of the capacity for direct observation of many physiological processes (e.g. - cellular respiration); all the stuff people claim to experience as "special" can be explained fairly straightforwardly by contemporary knowledge, including all of the seemingly odd effects that so-called healers exhibit;
the crazy stuff seen on the videos is a combination of entrainement and cultural coding: people jump up and down like monkeys because a) they want to be part of something extraordinary and so they are pre-programmed to be compliant and open to "suggestion"; b) they are told that doing this helps to dissipate the negative effects on their "chi" by being manipulated and so do it more consciously, adding to the effect; c) they are culturally programmed to make their teacher look good
Omar, how can any Taiji guy be able to develop his joint locking if "grabbing" is off limits in PH?
How can you train your "小纏絲(Xiao Chan Si) - small circle wrist lock" if you don't allow your opponent to grab on your wrist? How can you train your counter for "小纏絲(Xiao Chan Si) - small circle wrist lock" if you don't grab on your opponent's wrist first?
thats unfortunate... the chen bing vid leaves no doubt as to whats happening... the other ones are open to skepticism... you here people swear by it, but you just have to try it yourself to be sure...
yeah, my original understanding of energy was from a buddhist perspective... then i learned more from martial arts... so i came into chinese philosophy thru chinese boxing, but i already had an indian understanding thru other endeavors... i'll never forget the first time i had been tossed alot further than the effort would have suggested... everyone here has their own experiences with it... it opens up a whole new world as far as martial arts is concerned... well in general, i spose...
you know, i had a conversation about this recently... this cat was going on about shaolin are cultists that suck in stupid people wiyth their so called mystical carny tricks... so, many years ago i read this book called the tao of physics by fritjof capra and since then ive read anything i could find on drawing paralells between modern physics and eastern mysticism... some, not all... i tried to explain it from that perspective to the guy but he wasnt having it, he already made up his mind, i shouldnt have bothered... but so many people define chi as this mystical life energy... they take words from old sources at face value without considering the time difference and the limited words they had to describe their observations from our perspectives... we use a whole new language to define the natural world... they dont see scientific words so they assume its something its not... its really hard to get people to think outside of the limitations theyve already imposed on themselves... nothing worse than someone who wont admit when they are wrong, or maybe just not as far along as they think they are... i am forever a student and im wrong all the time and im willing to listen to what others have to say... its frustrating to conversate with people who arent that way... whats worse, is its frustrating when i catch myself acting that way too, getting sucked into other peoples bull****...
so, has anyone here been shocked by somebody with thier hands??? not including the peter griffin style static shock:D
no argument w the Chen Bing stuff - although his opponent doesn't seem to be fully resisting, the technique is solid, what he does is reasonable and high percentage - and happens to look a lot less like the magical taiji we see and more like what you see from other systems with a clear understanding of the range
what sort of Buddhist perspective was that?
one can get pretty much the same effects from yogic practice as you can w/qigong to a degree, then it starts to diverge somewhat;
I think that it's very hard to qualify that sort of thing - for example, if one is even a little bit compliant as the "throwee", it radically alters the degree of effort required by the "thrower" - decline to participate at the same juncture and you get nothing ; at the same time, you can see high level judo players use relatively little effort to throw someone who is fully resisting because of how they set them up, no magic involved...
also, what we agree to subscribe to as youthful novitiates in the arts may b very different from what we go along with after having some time in them...
I didn't see anything in the description of the clip to indicate that they were team mates. I think they were just good sportsman.
That's what I meant by "tame". I didn't watch it to the end so I didn't realize it got livelier as it went on. I just saw the first few techniques which seemed, as you put it, "subtle and gentle". I've seen some stuff out of Chen village that looked more just like someone took Judo and disallowed gi-grips.Quote:
anyways, the throws and sweeps were nice, very subtle and gentle for the most part...
[snip]
so if thats a "tame" event, show me a rough and brutal one... please?
p.s. Wow. It really did get better as it went on. :)
I assume you are referring to the fist couple of clips. No. Not shocked. If you watch carefully, you can see that they got wrist locked. That's why they fly back so weird. It's just single hand so it's hard to get a good push off someones arm. Sometimes what happens is when one person pushed, the receiver seizes that moment of tension, changes the angle on the point of contact so the wrist is locked up and pushes back into it. Then you get a person flying away ****her because they are suddenly cooperating with you as their body instinctively leaps away from the pain of the lock.
Depends what you mean by shocked. For me personally, through the arms:
Electric shock? No.
Shocked like being shot in the palm of the hand by compressed air from 2 ft away? No.
Shocked like a kick from shotgun? Yes.
Shocked like having a huge dog suddenly tug you? Yes.
Like was mentioned earlier grabbing is not allowed but hooking is. Maybe in Chinese it's clearer. You can 拿, just not 抓.
The best example of how a lock can be completely locked on that I can think of that everyone will understand is an arm bar. Leg across the persons front. Arms can be holding on to the wrist, hips up. If everythingthing is in place, there is no need to grab onto the arm with your fingers. Just hooking it with both hands and pulling back is enough.
the only thing I would say is that even if they were wrist locked, that the manner in which they were engaged predisposed them to get into that position - in other words, there was a degree of compliance that informed their movements - qualitatively, they were going with the flow, so to speak, and were directed into that position; now, IMPO, there is actually nothing wrong with that per se, but what I have issue w/is the pretense - in other words, thinking that it was the teacher's skill alone that enabled the outcome is deceptive - rather, it's more like a free-fow version of aikido - it is an interraction predicated on agreement that certain things will not occur - for example, the kind of movement quality that would make doing a wrist lock from that position basically impossible;
well qualified
Well he's not applying a wrist lock in the usual way. He's not grabbing the wrist and twisting it. He's waiting for the other person to attempt to push and then changing the receiving angle to that the persons wrist (and arm) gets locked up which means that when he pushes back they are not able to relax their arm and their own arm becomes a big spring board.
OTOH, I get what you are saying and did not initially want to show a clip that dramatic but there is a real dearth of single hand pushing exercises on the web. I think it's because most people, as I mentioned in my first post, underestimate the use of the exercise. Here's a clip that is more instructional and really breaks down what morehappens and seems to be free of any of such suspect, overly dramatic stuff:Quote:
typically
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtQgzQwrzpI
OTOOH....the both of them are is setting himself up for that same sort of wrist locking on pretty much every push. It's an annoying detail I see in most push hands and easily corrected. Don't know why no one seems aware of it.
Here's a clip of my friend and I playing around with Qin Na. It's not the most exemplary vid for many reasons (including size difference,) but it demonstrates a few things nicely.
When we did this, we basically included submissions into the push hands rules. There's some experimenting and goofing off that occurs, but there's valuable info in analyzing that, too.
We were both tired and drenched with sweat, which made it very hard to perform the grasps and locks. Even so, you will see a few locks emerge:
The first lock is performed @ ~7 seconds by him and was similar to "Wrist Press" as seen on page 106 of Yang Jwing Ming's "Shaolin Qin Na."
The second lock is performed @ ~2:30 by me and was similar to "Reverse wrist press" as seen on page 260 of the manual.
The third lock was performed @ ~3:50 by me and was similar to a large elbow wrap as seen on page 204 of the manual.
The fourth and final lock was performed @ ~6:30 by him and was similar to "Send the devil to heaven" as seen throughout the manual.
Notably, most of the locks were wrist locks (including "send the devil to heaven.")
NONE of the locks were separate finger locks. Only "send the devil to heaven" locked all the fingers at once.
Note: we haven't been practicing from the manual, I'm just using it as a reference because it's widely available.
Thanks for the info. I'll work my way through the vids.
From a competition point of view, it seems to channel a bit of sumo.
What I like about it is the commitment and body weight you have to put into it.
it will be interesting to see what comes of the whole chinese mma thing... its only a matter of time before kungfu works its way in there, more than it already has anyways...
mahayana at first, it was my first experience with meditation, learning about chakras etc... but then my reading went all over the place... at first it was just interesting... then alot of it started making sense... i dont consider myself a buddhist tho... i dont have a label in that respect... always learning...
you could draw paralells between yoga and qigong forsure...
i dont like how some people view chi as something magical...
has anyone read the tao of physics??? its a great jumpoff point for anyone interested in physics and chi... although it goes into alot more than chi...
oh they were just dressed the same... it was an assumption based on very little evidence :D
anymore clips of push hand comps, throw em up...
yeah the first ones... i cant really see the hands very well... their reactions just looked odd to me...
my sifu hit me in the neck awhile ago, not very hard, to illustrate a point and i got that shock down my side and even numbed a bit... it wasnt any sort of dim mak thing, just a chop...
im not into dim mak, its hard enough to hit somebody clean, let alone do precision strike to some nerve... im just using the example to illustrate what i meant by shock... i dont know what else to call that...
but in bjj i always use the 'squeeze and twist' motion, and that has that effect sometimes... esspecially in the wrists... u dig in to make them react in order to exploit their reaction...
it wil happen; china is good at jumping on whatever bandwagon is playing the oudest and mst popular tune (e.g. - Olympic sports - I mean, they went from nowhere to world class in diving)
yeh, I kno that feeling, lol
if u took refuge, u r a Buddhist; if u didn't, then you are, technically, not; it doesn't really matter one way or the other, of course, it's just a clear cut way of delineating things; I mean, this is their own internal qualification, but they certainly don't treat u better or worse one way or the other
considering how much stuff in TCMA was ripped off from yogic practice? sure thing!
some people are not very good Buddhists, and as such need to change reality to suit their projections...
<groan>; TBH, I blame Kapra as much as I do anyone for the misue of "qi" by people who have no idea about physics or taoism - problem is, his book legitimized the viewpoint of "oh, particle physics? yeh, the Taoists had that all figured out 3,000 years ago and did it without any fancy experiments, and also do a better job of describing it", which many people use as justification for dismissing contemporary scientific thot as either incomplete, derivative or both as compared to Taoist practice, without actually knowing much about either! fact is, the Taoists had NO IDEA about quantum physics per se; what they did "know", based on how they observed the natural world around them, was that from a morphogentic perspective, there was repetition and redundancy across the spectrum in terms of macro reflecting micro - which is really nothing more profound than looking at a piece of broccoli, a human lung, a tree and a river delta and going, "gee, those all kinda look alike...hmmmmm" (and now we have fractal geometry to explain all that); in other words, quantum theory is visually described using models based on our experience of the physical world, what we "know" - but in "reality", it is a theory of probabilities, that can really only be explained mathematically - in "reality" at the level that quantum theory operates, u actually can't use concrete imagery to describe it - so the description becomes a metaphor; and since a lot of Taoist practice is also based on metaphor, and because human experience is pretty uniform across cultures and time, in terms of how we experience the physical (and in a sense finite) world, you are going to get a lot of similarities - for example, when we look at "natural" movement, we see a lot of 3-dimensional movement - essentially, spirals; and when people move spontaneously, such as in Taoist shamanic practice, u see a lot of spirals - like in sea shells, and in tree growth and in DNA - so wait - the Taoists MUST have known about DNA as well, because of all those spirals they danced in! see what I'm getting at here? the "truth" of life is this: spontaneous rediscovery of fundamental principles, of things such as they are - and there is your applied Buddhism 101; in other words, correlation and causality are two different things - but Kapra drew the parallels and then drew conclusions based on his own internal subjective issues (if I recall correctly, it's been over 15 yrs since I picked that book up) - so while the comparisons are cool, the conclusions do a disservice to both Taoist practice and particle physics: I mean, have u ever looked at some of the equations, or the machinery, the level of technical complexity involved in atom smashing? how could some guy 2,000 yrs ago, living in a hole up the side of a mountain have ANY concept of what that involves? at the same time, he did experience the same world as a physicist living today, so of course there will be similarities, as both of these men were / are by their nature looking into the fundamental nature of things! and as such, the way the ask the question and frame the answer will be based on that common human experience on a certain level;
just my 2˘...
yeah i had some issues with the book too... esspecially the whole dance of shiva section... but the book did open my mind to certain concepts as real world stuff and took my head out of the clouds a bit... after i read that book i read this massive article on fractals... i wish i still had it, i cant even remember the name and i wont try to explain its hypothisis but my point is that it was a sequence in a chain of events that started, in part, by the tao of physics... when i was like 17, i lived in two worlds and had no tether between the two... slowly but surely those realities needed to come together... not that im satisfied with where im at today, but im not at all what i was either, as far as bringing spiritual curiosities and real world life together... i dont imagine it will take some sort of epiphany to sync the two completely... one day i'll just be like "oh, nice"... :D
and just becoz stupid people read it and think "oh he's credable, he has fancy titles, it must be true" doesnt make it his fault... i heard afterward he teemed up with a christian priest to do some work... never checked it out, kinda had moved on by then...
hey, I hear ya - when i first read it, I was like "way cool", so as an "eye opener", it has definite value, as far as drawing parallels (another book "Sensitive Chaos" by Theodor Schwenk does the same thing on a more macro level - definietly a neat book to check out), but IMPO one must be careful not to fall into the sort of "spiritual elitism" that I myself was a purveyor of for many years, looking down on "modern" science as being vastly inferior to Taoist practice, without having really an understanding of either; and I still only have limited knowledge of each, but I am not so reactionary now as I once was - I try to discern out things as such compared to things such as I would like them to be...
Freestyle push hands competition from Chen village:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzM4ODUzOTI=.html
This is the sort of thing that made me say the other clip was "a bit tame". ;)
Some very detailed teaching going on here:
http://www.56.com/u88/v_NTQxODU2Mzc.html
Same guy as above in a short clip where he's locking the wrists in the way I was trying to describe before but you can see his hands clearly in this one because he's teaching rather than demonstrating: http://www.56.com/u89/v_MzcyNzg0NjI.html
edit:
I think this clip shows it even better and with more power. The guy would totally be flying back except that sometimes the teacher holds onto him:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTcwMzc1MTY0.html
How about a really nice little instructional on standard 2 hand push and several of the typical applications that flow out of it? It's in Chinese but it's still pretty clear if you open your eyes and watch cafefully:
http://www.56.com/u95/v_MTI1OTk2NjA.html
Mario the only american guy who competed in and won the Chen Village push hands competition told me once ,while training at an open push hands group,"just train in judo". Here is a guy who competed against and won against the best,saying just train judo. Again since I have been living here.training in china for over four years I have done only bagua,shuai jiao and hung chuan,No push hands or tai chi training. But i did go and check out a Chen style teacher at the beging of my stay And in a two hour class they did about two minute of free style fixed step push hands. I talked to one of the students and he told me once in a while they do the moving push hands whith the circle. That to me is the problem with the internal arts and resistence work, they do thing once in a while. There is no consitancy in their training.Nore is there a systematic method of training.
In my shuai Jiao training in beijing,we spared every lesson, and hard and for a long time. on my first lesson I spared the teacher for about 20 minutes. on my second lesson I spared one of his top students.I also see no value to training without grabs. It is a bad habit. In the real world people grab.people throw and sweep.if you train in push hands cause you love it and it is part of your style then fine, but i do feel it is a short comming.
Thanks Omar. Those are some great vids. Nice illustrations of skill progression and what it really means to be 'high-level.'
even tho its turned into a bit of a sport, i was under the impression that push hands original purpose isnt to be a good grappler... i didnt think it was the end all acheivement in taiji... just a part of a bigger program... for practicing a few particular skills... im no expert, when i first saw it i thought to myself, "a first dan judoka could clear this room" but i was told i wasnt looking at it the right way... my goals werent the same as their goals... and their goals take time to truly understand... at first i brushed it off, whatever, people always say that "u dont get us and u have to be us to get us" but then it sunk in later on when i had some more experiences with it...
the first push hands i ever saw was pretty low level for all but like 3 seniors, and they were pretty rough... but later on i saw some rules that were alot different, no throws or grabing etc... hooking pulling pushing, that was it, and it was my understanding that this was more what it was supposed to be... again, i dunno tho... i find this thread pretty interesting, at the school im learning random stuff from the "ancients in the back" when i go early and im starting to really enjoy it... the slower you go the stronger you need to be, mistakes cant be hidden at all... its a very honest art in that respect... unlike these guys that go ape**** and claim to have done this and that but it was so fast, who knows sometimes...
ok, I get what u r saying as regards a wrist lock w/out twisting the wrist;
it's similar to both ikyu and nikyu in aikido, although there are some differences as far as what's ultimately being locked as well as how the move is finished; personally, I like to call it a forearm lock vs a wrist lock; in fact, to be more precise, you are spiral-binding the interosseous membrane of the forearm - what's happening is that you are manipulating the membrane btw ulna and radius in such a way that you are taking up all available degrees of freedom three-dimensionally (stacking, is what they call this in osteopathy, which is one way of treating this membrane), and then sending a linear force up the long axis of the forearm, but doing it while the forearm is twisted - as such, it has no capacity to accommodate locally, and therefore has to go up to the elbow / shoulder in order to do so; this is why you can get such an abrupt response through the whole system by a small movement;
of course, to some degree there is still compliance going on as the easiest "solution" is to just let go with your hand, and the problem is solved; which underscores the idea that this lock cannot occur if there is no grab;
that said, I appreciate the mechanics of what is being show in detail - in fact, the way the teacher uses his fingers in a "tiled roof" configuration is an important part of this - very similar to what BP Chan used to show (and this technique was one he spent a great deal of time on, at least in my limited time with him);
ding!ding!ding! We have a winner.
Yes. That is exactly what happens.
Easier said than done. The timing is just incredible. The guy applying the technique needs to wait for the other persons attack. IMO, this is a classic example of "borrowing force". The technique does not work unless the other person is trying to push you back. If he just lays his hand gently on your forearm, you have nothing to work with. It's one of the strange little details of the Taiji qin na I have learned so far. The other person has to be trying to do something to you for most of them to work.Quote:
of course, to some degree there is still compliance going on as the easiest "solution" is to just let go with your hand, and the problem is solved;
They don't have to grab. Just trying to push you is enough. It all happens so fast. In the vids I posted that show it clearly, the old guy is teaching so everything is slowed down. He is intentionally making the dynamic more clear by doing it in slow motion.Quote:
which underscores the idea that this lock cannot occur if there is no grab;
Incidentally I was just arguing elsewhere that grabbing makes you vulnerable to qin na. This little idea is a classic example. :)
Digging some of the clips in this thread. Nice to see you around, Omar!
I've noticed that when people try to grab me or push me that they can't do it when I punch them in the face real hard.
I also noticed that their ability to "sense" and read me doesn't work when my fist makes contact with their face.
How will you ever comprehend the soft then? lol :p
anyway, PH is namby pamby crap. I hate it. It's a good exercise in the beginning to understand listening skills, but when it's taken to the ludicrous levels that it is, well that's where it becomes the utter shyte that it is. I guess if you use it as some form of isometric exercise that would maybe benefit a little bit. That's about the only way I use it if I use it at all anymore.
either box or wrestle already, or both. Push hands is a teaching tool at the front end of the learning path.
people who don't know how to or don't have the guts to fight substitute PH in that place. Talk about sliding down that slippery slope. No benefit after beginners understanding is achieved.