6.5 Point Pole/ Baat Jaam Dao.
How do you incorporate them into your training? How do you see the practice of the weapons in the greater context of the system as a whole?
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6.5 Point Pole/ Baat Jaam Dao.
How do you incorporate them into your training? How do you see the practice of the weapons in the greater context of the system as a whole?
At Gary Lam's The pole is used for conditioning a coordination. as far as the knives go (I personally) have found nothing but ambiance. But many will tell you that it helps your double hand techniques like quan sau.
there are bucket loads of uses for weapons training in WC, not least learning to fight with the weapons in question (or similar). In addition they help increase power by adding weight and also challenging the practitioner to power the weapon (making the blades sing / pole hum), and just as importantly they hold a magnifying glass to your positions and control of your body by virtue of their length which causes small almost imperceptible differences in hand position look like huge movements when viewed at the tip of the weapon.
I never learned the pole or butterfly knives. No real need as my Wing Chun was to be a functional tool, and I would not be carrying a pole or knives on me. The razor, brass knuckles, spring blade knife, blackjack, things like that are far more practical since you can stuff them into a pocket.
Tools of the trade.
I just practice them every now and then and don't agonise over all this "why" sh*t.
Depends how good you want your "functional tool" to be. Then again if you're going out carrying dusters and flick knives you don't need wing chun (and IMO you shouldn't be taught it)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po
Well, same can be said for the pole and butterfly knives. If you are going to pack a long stick and a pair of short swords why would you need Wing Chun? The only difference here is the choice of weapons. It was understood that I would find occasion to use Wing Chun to fight, and sometimes it simply isn't going to be enough. Thus the small pocket weapons. Carrying a long stick or a couple of big knives would certainly attract attention, so that was pretty much out of the question. I could have put them to use on several occasions, but the smaller pocket weapons were so much easier to hide.Quote:
Originally Posted by wingchunIan
I am assuming that you practice Wing Chun and the weapons simply for the traditional feel of it all. Cultural or whatever. For me, it is just another weapon that I could hide from public view. Nothing to do with Honor or anything else except to be able to take your lunch money.
I train the weapons for two reasons, in case the need and opportunity arises to pick up and utilise an improvised weapon, and to improve my empty hand tools. As you live in Texas and don't have an issue with carrying / using a weapon, why not simply carry a gun and have done with it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po
I personally feel that I would not know the Wing Chun I know without having learnt the weapons and I was lucky really to have exposure to them quite early on (after about 3 years)Quote:
Originally Posted by WingChunABQ
My training is totally interactive too, not just copying the forms. I learnt that our weaponry is 'paired' and without a strong stick man your knife will only progress so far and vice versa.
A key reason for the introduction of another systems pole and stick work imho because the knife men had to train with somebody!! :)
I do carry a gun. However, there are still quite a number of establishments that do not allow guns. One I remember right off hand was a Lubby's restaurant where a man drove his truck through the front door to block exit and walked through shooting everyone. A single gun might have made a big difference, but they had a big red gun on a sign with a slash through it. In fact, I think it might have been the main reason they went ahead and passed that law. I think it was when they finally realized that the law or the police can simply not protect you.Quote:
Originally Posted by wingchunIan
I would rather ask for forgiveness than permission. I carry as well and will carry in any and all restaurants. Bars are different and I would never carry in a bar.
With respect for The police, they cannot and many cases will not protect you. That is not their job. We have been brainwashed into thinking such things.
In many major cities, the police are unable to deal with the amount of calls they have to deal with.
the onus for one's own self defense is one's self.
Brass Knuckles, switchblades, and blackjacks in MA would get your a felony illegal weapons charge, as well as financial penalties and the forfeiture of any CCW permits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po
Many Martial Arts systems have their own signature weapon/training tool; for example, WC we have 6.5P and BJD, Xing Yi the Spear, Tai Chi the whippy (not floppy) Jian, TSK the Iron Rings, and Bagua the Deer Horn/Yue, Silat the Karambit etc. The signature weapon represents the key to the Methods and Philosophy of the system, although sometimes not obvious. Understand the signature weapon and you will unlock a big part of the system.
Weapon training is not just about using that specific weapon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Dugas
You two want to try living in the UK where carrying any kind of concealed weaponry is illegal in the extreme.
I would not live in such a nation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Treznor
I feel for anyone who has to deal with not being able to defend themselves against criminals who care nothing for the law and use it to commit crimes.
Self defense is a human right.
----------------------------------------Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Dugas
Dunno. The UK has it's problems. But on the whole except for political terrorism there appears to be less serious violence in the UK-truer in Canada than in urban centers in the US today. Still- I prefer and choose to be and am an American. Despite problems there is still sufficent
protections from the Bill of Rights and tolerance for diversity. Greatest dangers are from autos.
Personally, i dont get the whole "allowed to carry a gun" thing. Im in Australia where its illegal, and nobody does, and our national homicide rate is around 60-80 a yearQuote:
Originally Posted by Vajramusti
It works and i dont see an argument against it
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennR
Glenn- I agree but the National Rifle Association is one of the most powerful lobbyists on the planet.
And, American gun culture is very deeply embedded. In Arizona where I live- the Colt .45
is part of the state's symbols including flowers etc.
In my neighborhood for over 26 years I know of no one who has had to use a gun against a criminal- but my teenaged lawn mowing guy was shot to death by a class mate with easy access to guns -a 100 yards from my house. An estranged girl friend was shot to death by her ex friend
50 yards from my house..he then shot himself a 100 yards from my house.And in Tucson where I used to live Congresswoman Gabby Gifford was shot and very badly injured by an unbalanced individual with easy access to guns.The gunman killed and injured several other people at the scene.
But- then as I quote ( in a manuscript) the late Rafael Sabbatini's famous opening lines in his adventure novel Scaramouche.. "he was born witha gift of laughter and a sense that the world was mad"!!
A good friend of mine, an American, went to graduate school in York. He admitted to me a certain stereotype of the British as being effete and delicate. He was shocked at the level of street violence he encountered. Street brawls and general acrimony were almost a daily occurance there, he said, owing to copious amounts of daily alcohol consumption and large groups of unemployed, bored youth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vajramusti
Seems like a pretty good place to know Wing Chun.
On the other hand, the possibility that an opponent in an American street fight has a gun or knife hidden on his person or in his car nearby helps, I think, mitigate the frequency of fist fights, even if it does exacerbate the consequences.
Solution: carry a pair of butterfly swords on your hip. People will think you're too insane to mess with.
Yep, even down here we know about the NRAQuote:
Glenn- I agree but the National Rifle Association is one of the most powerful lobbyists on the planet.
Sure, but the Whit Australia policy was embeddedcin Australia for decades and we have moved on from that.Quote:
And, American gun culture is very deeply embedded. In Arizona where I live- the Colt .45
is part of the state's symbols including flowers etc.
And id suggest its due to the ease of gun procurement.Quote:
In my neighborhood for over 26 years I know of no one who has had to use a gun against a criminal- but my teenaged lawn mowing guy was shot to death by a class mate with easy access to guns -a 100 yards from my house. An estranged girl friend was shot to death by her ex friend
50 yards from my house..he then shot himself a 100 yards from my house.And in Tucson where I used to live Congresswoman Gabby Gifford was shot and very badly injured by an unbalanced individual with easy access to guns.The gunman killed and injured several other people at the scene.
He got that rightQuote:
But- then as I quote ( in a manuscript) the late Rafael Sabbatini's famous opening lines in his adventure novel Scaramouche.. "he was born witha gift of laughter and a sense that the world was mad"!!
Actually, we've had a spate of drive-by shootings in Oz recently where citizens carrying loaded guns is illegal. Probably insignificant by US standards, and restricted to career criminals, but still, worrying.
Can't see myself that arming the populace would reduce rather than increase the likelihood of getting shot.
Good luck if you get stopped anywhere in OZ carrying dusters or a straight razor. A guy who briefly trained with us before my instructor asked him to leave after a couple of weird incidents, including stalking a female student, got fined $1500 for carrying a blade.
At least choose a weapon you can fabricate a plausible excuse for carrying so the cops at least might think you have a few brain cells. Carry a combat folder in a toolbox or a straight razor with shaving cream and aftershave. If you want to pack a baseball bat, take a glove and ball with you as well. Duster? forget it.
Yep. The CDC also said something like you being 100000 times more likely to die of lifestyle related heart disease than from a violent assault. Something to think about when considering your training goals.Quote:
Greatest dangers are from autos.
And cars make awesome weapons. You can carry one legally almost anywhere in the world.
South Africa seems to have a problem that pales the US. Crime is rampant here. Rampant does not really say it. It was finally realized that the constitution, the law, law enforcement, whatever, can not protect you. They can seek justice and in a few cases might be able to find it. Don't seem like it would really matter to you at that point though. You have to protect yourself. When it is understood that anyone you come up on is probably packing, you will be far less likely to try to take his lunch money. In places where concealed carry has been passed, the violent crimes against people has actually dropped. In areas where guns are illegal to own, the rate is very high. You will not see criminals turning in their guns simply because it is illegal.
In places where I cold not carry a knife or knuckles I simply carried a bunch of half dollars. Don't see those much any more though. They are heavy, and just the right size for throwing. I had about 50 bucks in half dollars and would spend endless hours throwing them at a 3 inch hole in a sheetrock wall. You can drop someone with a single coin. I also played with them and could roll 1 of them with each hand at the same time.
Doctors kill more people per year than guns do.
Doctors: (A) There are 700,000 physicians in the U.S. (B) Accidental deaths caused by physicians total 120,000 per year. (C) Accidental death percentage per physician is 0.171.
Guns: (A) There are 80 million gun owners in the U.S. (B) There are 1,500 accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups. (C) The percentage of accidental deaths per gun owner is 0.0000188.
Statistically, then, doctors are 9,000 times more dangerous to the public health than gun owners. Fact: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR. Following the logic of liberals, we should all be warned: "Guns don't kill people. Doctors do."
And here's what the Brits think of gun control.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKdBx...e_gdata_player
A. Guns save more lives than they take; prevent more injuries than they inflict
* Guns used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year -- or about 6,850 times a day.1 This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.2
* Of the 2.5 million times citizens use their guns to defend themselves every year, the overwhelming majority merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers. Less than 8% of the time, a citizen will kill or wound his/her attacker.3
* As many as 200,000 women use a gun every year to defend themselves against sexual abuse.4
* Even anti-gun Clinton researchers concede that guns are used 1.5 million times annually for self-defense. According to the Clinton Justice Department, there are as many as 1.5 million cases of self-defense every year. The National Institute of Justice published this figure in 1997 as part of "Guns in America" -- a study which was authored by noted anti-gun criminologists Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig.5
* Armed citizens kill more crooks than do the police. Citizens shoot and kill at least twice as many criminals as police do every year (1,527 to 606).6 And readers of Newsweek learned that "only 2 percent of civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal. The 'error rate' for the police, however, was 11 percent, more than five times as high."7
* Handguns are the weapon of choice for self-defense. Citizens use handguns to protect themselves over 1.9 million times a year.8 Many of these self-defense handguns could be labeled as "Saturday Night Specials."
B. Concealed carry laws help reduce crime
* Nationwide: one-half million self-defense uses. Every year, as many as one-half million citizens defend themselves with a firearm away from home.9
* Concealed carry laws are dropping crime rates across the country. A comprehensive national study determined in 1996 that violent crime fell after states made it legal to carry concealed firearms. The results of the study showed:
* States which passed concealed carry laws reduced their murder rate by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%;10 and
* If those states not having concealed carry laws had adopted such laws in 1992, then approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and over 11,000 robberies would have been avoided yearly.11
* Vermont: one of the safest five states in the country. In Vermont, citizens can carry a firearm without getting permission... without paying a fee... or without going through any kind of government-imposed waiting period. And yet for ten years in a row, Vermont has remained one of the top-five, safest states in the union -- having three times received the "Safest State Award."12
* Florida: concealed carry helps slash the murder rates in the state. In the fifteen years following the passage of Florida's concealed carry law in 1987, over 800,000 permits to carry firearms were issued to people in the state.13 FBI reports show that the homicide rate in Florida, which in 1987 was much higher than the national average, fell 52% during that 15-year period -- thus putting the Florida rate below the national average. 14
* Do firearms carry laws result in chaos? No. Consider the case of Florida. A citizen in the Sunshine State is far more likely to be attacked by an alligator than to be assaulted by a concealed carry holder.
Traditionally, many CMA masters carried some type(s) of hidden weapon(s) on them.
Some attempts at weapon control are plain stup!d. I heard that in one nation, they were trying to pass a law that kitchen knives not be allowed to have points, so that people could not use them to stab. They would also set up stations where 'good citizens' could drop off their knives to be destroyed. As if that would make any difference in the crime rate, knife-related or otherwise! Does anyone really think that criminals will turn in their knives (or guns)?
Also, people should understand that in the U.S., it's not the same everywhere. Except for some states, unless you are deemed to have a very good reason (professionally, etc.), it's not easy to get a CCW permit.
There's quite a few places like that... I live in a town called Burnley (about 20-25 miles from Manchester which is supposedly the most violent place in the UK) and we also seem to have a reputation for having more than our fair share of nutters.Quote:
Originally Posted by WingChunABQ
Having said that, I've only ever had 1 bit of aggro (a single punch each for me and a mate... which was years ago and well before I started training VT) in all the time I've been going out around here...
Having said that, one of the reasons I started training is because I have this feeling that one day I'm gonna spout off at the wrong person and I'd rather know how to handle myself if worst comes to worst.
@Treznor - My friend seemed to say this was the trend in Britain. A coworker of mine from Yorkshire said as much as well. Pub culture seems to be the culprit.
I think it makes an excellent case for continuing the heritage of learning unarmed martial arts.
As for where I'm from in the U.S., there are plenty of morons with guns and knives and the possibility that they'll pull one on you should things get less than civil changes the equation a bit. It's made me emphasize certain things in my training such as prepping for group fights (turning stances/chum kiu concepts), staying up off the ground (a defense against Girlfriend with a Knife), disabling maneuvers (arm breaks are nice), and the very effective Stay The Hell Out of Dangerous Situations form.
It seems that training the WC weapons then is great preperation for improvised weapons. I may not carry the BJD with me where ever I go, but I might be able to find a stick or a bottle. We can be armed while being unarmed, is what I'm getting at.
While I agree fully with 'general trend' comment, it's usually easy to avoid any trouble just by avoiding certain areas.
It seems to me (both from personal observation and stories from other people) that the worst spots tend to be the 'trendy' pubs... I suppose this could come down to being because they're full of young(ish) lads drinking as much as they can as quickly as they can...
I've always tended to stay away from these sorts of places and usually go to rock bars / old **** bars... not just to avoid trouble but because I actually prefer them... And as a bonus, the clientelle just seems SO much better.
As I mentioned in a previous post, I've actually only been doing VT since last August so have yet to test my effectiveness in a real situation (and since I've only been hit once since I left school (13 years ago :eek:), it COULD be some time before I do get the chance).
Mat
Oh yeah, I forgot to ask...Quote:
Originally Posted by Vajramusti
Are you seriously saying that, if you were born and bred in a country with strict gun / weapon control, you would emigrate just so you could carry weaponry?
OR
You find your perfect job paying 3 times your current salary / love of your life but have to move to a country / state where carrying weapons is illegal... Would you seriously turn it / her / him down for this reason?
Hmmm obviously your friends think that Yorkshire is the hub of the UK for trends in drunken violence but I don't think so. It is however the birthplace of the Conservative Party, so hey ho! It is 'used' a little in the crime statistical battle we seem to be facing here everyday. I live in London so it's probably a little different.Quote:
Originally Posted by WingChunABQ
I will disagree about the Pub Culture being the culprit for armed violence. Do you know the difference between a price for a pint in the pub and in the supermarket?? Do you think the pubs actively sell alcohol to kids under 18? Because it is within this demographic you are using as an example.
Our young London hoodies get their drinks cheap and from older friends/family and they hang around wherever they can because there is no activity offered to them like in the older glory days of the local Boxing Gyms and Youth centres! They wouldn't be seen dead in a pub because of the cost alone, just as they wouldn't buy music and DVDs in a 'shop'!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:
Originally Posted by Treznor
No -I did not say or mean either of the two positions you state above.
joy chaudhuri
Sorry dude... quoted the wrong post. :o
It was supposed to be directed at Dale Dugas' post where he says:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Dugas
I don't have any firsthand knowledge of drunken English violence. Maybe "pub culture" isn't as bad a thing as excessive alcohol consumption itself. Dunno. In my town, kids just steal their parents' Sudafed and make meth (the TV show Breaking Bad, btw, is filmed and set in my hometown of Albuquerque, New Mexico. Glad we're famous for something!).Quote:
Originally Posted by LoneTiger108
What does this have to do with Wing Chun weapons? I suppose that training them is useful, despite their surface impracticality ("a man walks into a pub with a Dragon Pole. The waitress asks, 'Do you practice Wing Chun, or are you just happy to see me?'"). We can train them to prepare ourselves to use real-world analogues - a broomstick insead of a 6.5 point pole, etc.
The thing that always springs to my mind when I think about Albuquerque (which, to be honest isn't too often) is that it's where Bugs Bunny should have turned left:)Quote:
Originally Posted by WingChunABQ
Back to the weapons debate though, according to my sifu there are still valid reasons for training with the weapons... Pole strengthens wrists... Knives is all about footwork / tightens up hand positions.
You know what Bugs Bunny would have done had he made the correct turn here? Started a meth lab, that's what.
I also find that the swords REALLY strengthen the wrists, and both weapons help with body unity/two hand coordination.
Sweet F A (to use a local term!) but everybody was getting on the wagon ;) so I thought I would add my ten pence.Quote:
Originally Posted by WingChunABQ
With regards to the thread I have made my oint as clear as I can and I am a true believer in keeping the Weaponry attached to our Art for more than cultural or mystical reasons.
Right. My "what does this have to do with weapons" thing was more for me to get back on topic than criticize what anyone was saying about fighting English drunks.
The whole field of non-lethal self-defense alternatives is a rich one, and usually best approached with locals. Some of those teaching combat handgun and concealed carrry courses (at least in the US) are a great source of this as they are usually pretty familiar with local laws and what works. Many of the best among those instruct law enforcement so that's who I'd go to.Quote:
Originally Posted by anerlich
Mixing Styles & Weapons? READ Wing Chun and Karambit by Tony Angso
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/admin/...3-Karambit.jpg
I see the pole as most beneficial. For strength building and a great work out if you have heavy long pole
How ever the knives are great too. I have both Double Killing Blades as well as using regular machetes.
Today the equivalent of the double killing blades would be knives or machetes. I use both traditional butterfly swords
as well as modern day weapons. But Upon careful study i see that certain weapons were added to WC later.
I wonder if any other lineages thought about adding new weapons to their training to make it more functional?