Just something that interest me immensely.
How do you translate 'Luk Dim Boon Gwun'? And how does it affect your interpretation of Wing Chuns lesser known stick/pole plays?
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Just something that interest me immensely.
How do you translate 'Luk Dim Boon Gwun'? And how does it affect your interpretation of Wing Chuns lesser known stick/pole plays?
You know my thinking for the pole with my interpretation of the techniques and how I envisage they could be used, as far as translation is concerned I leave that to experts in languages, I stick to being a "cunning linguist" :eek:
Maybe I shouldn't have just asked the question straight away...
I'm not saying that you need to be a linguist professor to understand your Wing Chun, but I would never have been given access to anything if I didn't show the interest in learning Chinese (Cantonese).
I admit that I'm crap at conversation, but I do know a little about curriculums and terminologies. This has been my downfall really, as there are no people to chat to other than fellow 'Jun Mo' students and they're all over the place these days lol!
What is the name of everyones 1st Point Technique? 2nd 3rd etc? It intrigues me, as I've said before, as I have still to see a 'form' like the one passed down from Lee Shing. The version I'm on about here is only taught by Sifu Austin Goh and Sifu Joe Lee, my 'Uncles'.
This is what it looks like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExClVQ7CdVs
'Luk Dim Boon Gwun'=6 1/2 points pole.
There are more than 6 1/2 strikes with the pole. The name is not because of 6 1/2 strikes IMO.
Thanks for sharing the Goh clip-I had seen to before. He looks "energetic"- but I would rather not do it that way at least for training..
Ip man was already old when he was filmed with the pole at a HK police gathering. A well known
WC businessman bought that film and is most likely sitting on it....though he has shown it to some students. Sheesh.
joy chaudhuri
Phil, Joy, I think it also depends how you do the counting.
You seem to be hinting you have some unique insight into the pole most of your WC peers lack, and are hinting around it. I don't have time for mind games, so in my case the answer is "both". If you have something to share, share it.Quote:
Is it me, or is this thread being ignored!
I know Phil. Wing chun is a diverse world.
Andrew- Of course - depends on how one counts. Not being coy atleast not intentionally.
But if you look at some possible basic strikes -not pure "blocks"( the kuit on the kwan:not more than one sound) there can be many more than
6 strikes.
For starters-
Top of the head, center of the forehead, wind pipe cavity, chest, solar plexus, dan tien, groin, both sides- temple, sides of the neck, hands, elbows, knees, ankles. shoulders, colar bone indentation etc. Too many "points"---that is why I am skeptical of the name coming from 6 1/2 strike points. Each strike would involve different manipulations of the pole.
joy chaudhuri
Phil,
I let it go---depends on how one counts---I count more than 6 strikes-not just many more points.
joy chaudhuri
Neither. At the OP.Quote:
Was this aimed at me or Joy? I don't think either of us said or implied that we had some special knowledge above other wingchunners.
The pole form according to Wong Seung Leung and Tsui Seung Tin line:
The first six moves are for striking. The seventh (Lau Sui, or Running Water) is for redirection. Hence six and a half point.
I've seen students of both Wong and Tsui doing the pole. Similar moves, different flavour.
Cheers,
John
Anyone ever think it was related to the length of the "traditional" pole ?
(Meaning the one most commonly used....)
Although these days it wouldnt relate exactly to 6 1/2 of anything as there are many different measuring units....
This is the idea of what was passed to me ...
Lok Yiu - Yau Soong Ying - DREW
Anyone know what the common measuring unit is in China and how long its been used...or what it once was..... ?
I personally have never really been welcomed into the Wing Chun family as my Sifu has always been different, low key and non-political. I do think I have a rare insight though, as I know of very few people who have seen what I have seen, trained what I trained and lived how I did. Very few. But don't we all feel like this? This isn't intended as a boast, as I trained alongside guys who had more than 15 years in Wing Chun before they met Sifu! They were all oldskool, and if I do have peers it is only them I would refer to, although I call them 'Brothers' and they know who I am.
I started this thread because of a confusion, or shall I say 'lack' of enthusiasm for the Pole/Stick training in Wing Chun. That's all. The translation, IMHO, means so much in interpretation. This quote, I feel, says it all:
Words from an Wing Chun non-expert
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The pole form according to Wong Seung Leung and Tsui Seung Tin line:
The first six moves are for striking. The seventh (Lau Sui, or Running Water) is for redirection. Hence six and a half point.
NOTE: The Seventh. This was how it was explained to us on numerous occassions. The 'Half Pole' was NEVER described as being a 'point'. The Half Pole was like the quarter staff and used for redirection as suggested, evading and parrying at close range. Yes, I say 'close range'.
I'm sorry if I offended anyone by starting this thread, or even for entering this forum in the first place, but I honestly want to hear from people who have a similar viewpoint. Our Families stick was famous while Lee Shing was alive. He was known as 'King Of The Stick' as a young man! Never needing to learn it from Yip Man, but assist in its refinement he may have done IMHO.
I have my own reservations about sharing my mind on forums like this one as I too am in semi-retirement at 32!! lol!! There is just no reason for me to teach/coach in todays climate as I feel that the interest really isn't there...
After years looking at this site, I took it upon myself to write here without any of my Family knowing. Soon it may all just stop as I get the impression this is going to be a difficult journey...
LT:
An old Chinese saying comes to mind: 'dui ngu taane kam' , which means playing piano to a cow. No matter whether you are playing good or bad, the cow wouldn't appreciate it.
In some ways, it's the same on this forum. No matter how good your post, some may not agree; no matter how poor your post, some agrees. It all depends on ones experience, comprehension, skill level, etc., etc.
If you decide only to part-take upon good reception \ responses, then you may as well pack up and go home. FWIW, I enjoy some of your post (needless to say, I don't agree with everything) and I think it's good contribution to an otherwise 'bickering' forum.
Carry on if you enjoy the banter, but remember that only 'weak minded' people needs to seek other's approval.
According to Robert Chu
http://www.chusaulei.com/martial/art...s_weapons.htmlQuote:
The pole, as taught on the Red Junks, was comprised of six-and-a-half conceptual points (ideas), hence it was called "six-and-a-half-point pole". The Siu Lam Weng Chun of Fung Siu-Ching included the points rise, obstruct, point, deflect, cut, and circle, and the half-point leak. While it is said the half-point is separated due to its predominantly defensive usage, all of these concepts can and should be applied defensively or offensively, as circumstances dictate. Others prefer to explain the six-and-a-half points in the terminology of wing chun boxing and offer up dart, disperse, wing, control, cultivate, circle and the half-point obstruct. In the Cho family (descended from Opera performer Yik Kam) and Yuen Kay-San systems, the spearing pole is considered the half-point since it is the core and can come from any other movement .
Thanks for the comments chisauking. Nice to know someone is at least 'enjoying' my little posts. I can only say that I hope you don't think that I would 'need approval' to be here. I am big enough and old enough to make up my own mind, but believe me when I say that many of my Family will probably use the saying you talk of here!
Being trained behind closed doors has its disadvantages, as at times I felt completely controlled by Sifu, but as I aged he relaxed and once I had kids he literally ordered me to go home! lol! I find nothing wrong in this submissive attitude as he was 'as a father' to me for many years.
I will carry on posting regardless as I do like the banter, meaningful or not! But time is against me as always...
I can understand your post Phil, and I'm happy that you're contributing here, but there may be other versions of the Pole that use varied terminologies for the techniques being trained, let alone the theories behind the form.
I would appreciate your comments in this thread, as I know my families pole is not very well known...
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ad.php?t=42773
My take!
The Look Dim Boon Gwun, Sam Dim Boon Gwun, and the Sap Sam Cheung Look Dim Boon Gwun are names, for differant pole methods, typicaly found within the WCK system though differant pole forms and methods can be found in other Kung Fu branchs, with the same names.
Like all things in WCK, the traditional 'naming' of something, contains ideas about "it" and the concepts and principles involved. 6 and half point pole doesnt mean you can ONLY have 6.5 attacks. It means Litteraly 6 and a half concept pole. A "dim" or point, is way byond a "s'trike". A "dim", is a "Yiu Dim" or "important concept".
While the Dim/Points are concepts, each is "exemplified and manefested in one specific kind of use or strike. So all 6.5 points, and the sometimes included full 7th, have 7 basic strikes/uses.
This pattern and layering of knowledge is found in the entire WCK system. Ok Tan Sau. Look at SLT. We know WCK is a princiiple and concept driven art. We have a Concept of Tan, and a Ging that goes along with it. Really it can be applied anyway ones imagination can, as long as you remain in the WCK context thats outlined in the Principles. But in the SLT form, the Tan Sau concept, is expressed and manefested in the most basic and logical us for said concept.Which is also a litteral technique or strike(with the half point)
So I think the 6.5 points are concepts first and foremost, but each can be applied litteraly as strikes, as found within the forms.
There is so much variation in WCK on everything, we cant even agree on the Half Point. And the "water dripping' pole you mentioned, in YKS Pole, is one of our regular points.
The Half point, is a CORE concept that is applied in every aspect of ones WCK, and has nothing to do with "Lan Gwun" or Sart Gwun typicaly seen in many H.K pole forms IMO.
B
Several posts, just while i was writing mine!! I cant keep up.
I agree with Roberts statement that Cho and YKS use "Chuen Cheung" as the Half point.
I disagree with the statement that Fung Siu Chings pole form Half point is "Lau" or Leak. Yuen Kay Shans pole form, IS Fung Siu Chings pole form. Fung lived with Yuen for the last 3 years of his life, and than the Yuens burried him and officiated at his funeral. Also the PURE Tang Family art, removed from the Modern 'weng chun" branchs represent one of the best pole forms I have seen, and is related to the YKS system (and/or vice versa)
Andreas Hoffman ~says~his pole method is that of Fung Siu Ching. He teachs that the 6 pole concepts are applied to half of his system, while the Half point of Lau/leaking is the other Half of the system he teachs. As in Lau is the most important and is Half of what you always want to do or keep in mind. If you want to unravel the "Modern" Weng Chun Myth, you need only visit :
www.wingchunpedia.org
and look up entries involving :
Dai Duk Lan
Lo Family
Dong and Chu Family
Tang family
Cheng Kwong
and
Andreas Hoffman
B
*My* pole form (My Sifu's interpretation of the Moy Yat system handed down to him) has 6 distinct pokes or thrusts and then a "C" motion. The "C" motion is the "half."
Just thought I'd share.
Best,
Kenton Sefcik
Right on Kenton. This is 99% of what I learned from two different Wing Chun Sifu. The only difference is the "C" motion you mentioned.This was the best answer yet for YMWCK. Of course I don't claim to have a special knowledge on the pole. I can only speak on what I learned. I'm going to send you something by email.
Phil
I believe, IMO, that what you're referring to here is what we used to call the 'Half-Moon' motion prior to thrusting with a point. From what I can remember this was also a 'Chi' cultivating exercise which helps to raise the intent up to the chest before releasing through the arm and fingers.
I don't think my 'knowledge' is special either Phil, but I do belive I have had access to a 'special' environment concerning this tool, or weapon as it was a standard for all of us. I am very proud of my experiences with my Sifu and I know that this was an ongoing argument as when I first heard of the form it was refferred to as the 6 & half point pole. Later, we all decided that it made more sense being the 6 Point & Half Pole due to our distinct Half Pole Set.
Please consider that I'm talking of a whole 'Form' here, which would have been impossible to practice in a small home in Hong Kong! Adjustments were normally made for this reason and I feel that what I have seen from Yip Mans version the points and motions are there, but the stance/leg/stepping work is minimized completely. A reference to 'hidden' theories was the norm and I feel that Lee Shing hid nothing from his way of the stick, as the stick was his life...
I apologize for not using proper terms, but here the breakdown:
Pickup up pole so that the long end extends to the right.
1. Poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
2. Poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
3. Poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
4. Tan Sau with a 45 degree turn to the right, poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
5. Clockwise circle block with a 90 degree turn to the left, poke return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
6. Small "Jut" downwards with a 45 degree turn to the right (returning to the centre), poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
1/2. Sit in Horse, extend both arms/pole out to shoulder height, poke, return pole to chest, drop the pole downward and slightly forward
Maybe when I'm back in town (I'm away next week), I could Youtube myself. ;)
I look forward to your e-mail, Phil!
Best,
Kenton Sefcik
Kenton, I have to thank you for this insight as I personally do nothing like this with the pole form I studied. I have seen this type of training/form though and I do recognize what you may mean by 'poke in horse' as we refer to this posture as 'Dai Yat Dim' or 'First Point' in English. Maybe what you're doing here is actually training a set for assisting your understanding of one point?
My Uncle Austin Goh has shown a '3 Point' exercise on Youtube, and its quite similar in places:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNU4B4BToIE
This clip looks more like what you described IMO:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRf0ZNya0pg
I don't know anything about the Sum Nung stuff, however my first WC school was with Brian Lewadny. He was a Hung Gar master before he started in WC. This form that is on the video looks EXACTLY like the Monkey Staff form, except that it is shortened up a bit and given some "WC Shifting."
Hey James!!! Do you have a vid on the internet of Cornelio performing the Monkey Staff form from a demo? Just checking.
My opinion,
Kenton Sefcik
Hi Kenton:)
I'll have to look thru the archives of tapes and clips to see if I have Corny doing the monkey pole. I never paid too much attention to those things as I had no interest in ever learning it, too much fluff for me, and don't remember him ever doing that form, I only remember him doing the broad sword form allot.
James
I think you may have got the Monkey Staff confused here! A Monkey Staff, as far as I'm aware, utilizes the 'character' of the Monkey and usually is performed with the famous 'Staff' (solid metal, possibly with brass ends). It also has a very powerful Half-Pole technique, concentrating on turning and swirling etc. With this in mind, the Sum Nung example does not have the Monkey Character.
The 'exercise' I see is another way of separating the Half-Pole from the Six Points, of which I am also familiar with as this is what the Lee Shing Family tend to practice. And thats what I believe this clip to be. Speaking from experience, when we demonstrated in public there were always slight changes that were made depending on the environment. As an example I had to alter our sixth point due to the cieling being very low, I had to step backwards instead of forwards as the audience was too close etc. These things happen sometimes, and unfortunately when 'forms' like this are seen they are scrutinised and often disregarded due to lack of information or understanding.
Overall, its a very neat 'classic' set with Half-pole (quarterstaff) techniques being practised equally on both sides with the various steppping work associated with this part of the Six Point Half Pole. Honestly, if you have never practised this set/idea you may never find the clip familiar. It has definately not been 'added' or 'stolen'! All the information about this clip is within the Six Point & Half Pole Form I am familiar with.
Hence, the title of this thread...
ps. I would still like to see the 'other half' of the Pole described by Couch, are there any clips of Wong Shun Leungs form anywhere on the net?
LUK DIM BUN KWAN - Six and Half POINT Pole Techniques
This name come from the marks left by the pole when it strikes a paper surface for example.
Each of the 6 techniques, when strike a paper target, leave a round or oval hole.
The "half technique" leaves a crescent or half-moon shaped hole.
:D
it means, that we have 6 (full) movements, which come from the body to the target... the last one teaches you how one can make a strike, when your arms already extended..... a strike after a strike... we call it half movement, because we strike with extended arms.
;)
LUK DIM BUN KWAN: The "Wing Chun" Pole is such heavy and powerful and very dangerous (attacks targeted between solar plexus and throat) weapon, that it is not used with repeated actions of attack, defense,.......attack, defense,.....and so on. The weight of the pole (Wing Chun pole) produces a lot of momentum, too much power, that there is no time to recover.
Properly understood and properly practiced, the practitioner that has the SKILL and understands this weapon specifically, will do ONE fatal attack. Otherwise if he/she missed that attack, then he/she was controlled by the enemy, and that is it. (That's the purpose of Chi Kwan exercise)
Always remember: "LUK DIM BUN KWAN DOES NOT MAKE TWO SOUNDS!"
Thanks for reminding us all, except you forgot to add the reason; 'if its used to 'kill'...
When you 'train' the interactions, or so-called 'chi-gwan', OFCOURSE you will hear more than one sound!
I started this post in an attempt to meet some practitioners who may have some decent knowledge to exchange, but it looks like I'm wasting my time here as nobody seems to even relate to my 'half-pole' insights.
I really am a LoneTiger, and I feel like it will stay that way...
Only if the other Pole/Weaponry man is trained to kill ya K!
Another example of how old 'sayings' have become 'doctrine' for teaching in the present day.
Ofcourse the IDEAL would be to only hear your Pole make contact with the opponents weapon only once, but to be honest I'd prefer to hear no sound at all except for the strike landing itself!
Another interpretation of the 'one sound' relates to the 'stiffness' of the Pole. Some more flexible sticks reverberate and, intentionally or not, will rebound back to hit the target 2 or 3 times. This is also to be avoided as just one 'touch' was considered enough. Again, just sayings...
why else would he be pointing a loaded pole at me ? :D [ you are not missing the idea , but not mentioning the fact that this is why we simply strike to kill ya in one move .... we dont know what the other guy can do , how good he is...how many 'notches' does he have on his pole ??? so treat them all with the same 'extreme prejudice' and respect , never underestimate your opponent , a dying man always has one last action....]
old sayings are usually misinterpreted , goes with the cantonese language ....one needs
the idea , not 'let me think ' SLAP !! etc...