Curriculum? I went to visit one and was suprised to learn that they start off the training with sanshou(boxing) skills for weeks before getting to any forms work. Also was disappointed at the McDojo'ness of the place.
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Curriculum? I went to visit one and was suprised to learn that they start off the training with sanshou(boxing) skills for weeks before getting to any forms work. Also was disappointed at the McDojo'ness of the place.
"Join the Shaolin Warrior program and get your black belt in two years"
Hello Cimaroon,
I'll try my best to answer your question, although understand that I'm not absolutely familiar with the fine details of how every HFY kwoon is run.
In the HFY Wing Chun Federation, all kwoons follow a strict cirriculum of HFY material that has been approved and directed by HFY HQ.
With that said, schools are allowed to taylor their individual programs outside of the HFY cirriculum to better fit their regional location and student base.
Therefore, some schools do provide an introduction to martial arts program that serves as a pathway for new students to gain some basic martial awareness and athletic ability before they are brought fully into the HFY program.
However to my knowledge, if the student already has a degree of athletic ability, they can test out of these introduction classes and move straight to the HFY program itself.
In regards to your personal experience, you may have found this introduction course to not be what you had in mind. But I will say, that a basis of outside martial knowledge is to your benefit later on in your training for sparring and other skill challenges.
As for the McDojo-ness of the belts etc... I personally don't care for belts, but you'd be surprised at how many students really really want them. So with that in mind our schools are allowed to implement belt rankings within their kwoons as they see fit.
However all regional instructors must follow the ranking and certification process as required by HFY HQ.
Hope that answers your questions.
I have found this approach to be refreshing! I think it really helps the Wing Chun student define what it is that he/she is learning! I think it also allows them to see a contrast in methods! keeping a healthy respect for other arts while allowing the student to see the benefit of his/her training. As for getting your black belt in 2 years I think black belt is a relative term. I have no problem bringing my 2 year students to a level where they can compete at the black belt level! As a matter of fact when ever my student compete if they've been with me more then two years they prefer to sign up for the "black belt" or "advanced" level.
just my 2 cent
I like the idea of using a san shou platform to start the basics it is a great idea. It will be good to start with a realistic (actual contact) free fighting format. Then move to a model that has form etc... I think it will aid in application. To me there is nothing worse then to see a martialart demonstrated against a poor example of a technique.This will make sure that the skill challenges are of better quality! Some would consider that "keeping it real" LOL! :D If someone already has a martialarts back ground and can demonstrate the basics with good quality then they will have no issue testing out of it. ;) It's a win - win for everyone!
Thanks. Not trying to disrespect. Just curious. Also, these particular folks were tryting to get $200 bucks , fast out of me before I even partook in one class. They didnt really talk with me abut my goals or intentions, just plug me into the particular slot pay and pass go.
That is strange to hear, and I understand your concern. Typically we offer a free trial class for every potential new student. As for payments, usually it's just the monthly fee, and the cost of a T-shirt and/or sweat pants. Also, a brief but informative over-view of the program and their courses should be given. Thus allowing the potential student to know what exactly it is that they are signing up for.
If you are still interested in finding a Hung Fa Kwoon in your area, simply pm me or Chango, and one of us will be glad to get you sorted.
Best,
Alex
duende and chango those were good straight answers, i have a simple question.
Is there a standard grading system in HFY? Just as a refrence for non-members it would be good to know if there is Black Bel;ts or degrees etc.
Hey there Punch,
Like I mentioned earlier there is a standard grading system for instructors etc, but for regular members each school is given some latitude with belt levels and degrees.
By and large however, we all pretty much follow the same system belt system... with Blue representing SLT, Green for CK and so on.
Basically we have three individual form levels and three weapons levels. The form levels (SLT, CK, BG) each are divided into three sections. These sections incorporate two-man drills, conditioning sets, and skill challenges along with solo dummy forms to complement the material presented.
One thing to note, in HFY... progression and advancement is based on skill, not on a specified amount of time. Therefor it is not uncommon for a newer student to sometimes pass an older student if the newer student is able to apply the material being taught first.
Simple as that. However no student advances to the next level/belt/ranking unless they pass the skill challenges imposed on the level material being taught.
This is all discussed in much more detail on HFY108 which is open to the public.
Best,
Alex
sounds dodgy. Does that mean black belt is the weapons. In two years you have got to be joking. If you where doing 18 hour days maybe. But do they teach vt in the shan shou. Seems strange to do other stuff if you want vt. And the bit about any one who has done ma should be happy to 'test' it sounds a bit like a 'what are you chicken' thing. Just sounds like he want to learn vt and was going to be saying a lot to do other them he wanted
thanks for the reply Duende, it's good to make some things more public to avoid problems with fakes and imitations. I like variety and wish more was shared.
Your most welcome Punch. :) And I also like variety.
bennyvt,
How you came to those conclusions is really odd, but you are incorrect in all your assumptions.
HFY is not for everyone. And if learning WT in a closed environment without any interaction or awareness of other martial arts and their techniques is what you're after, then there are plenty of schools out there that will teach you all the forms and more in two years. HFY is just not one of them.
With that said, it is my strong belief that in order to apply your Wing Chun, you have to have experience testing yourself against non-wc fighters. This is not being dodgy, this is simply the reality of combat.
As for how long it takes to learn something... Like I mentioned earlier, it depends on the individual and how long it takes them personally to grow and experience the different seasons of learning.
If Cimaroon wants to try out a HFY school, my offer of help still stands. The rest is up to him.
Your most welcome Punch. :) And I also like variety.
Bennyvt,
How you came to those conclusions is really odd, and you are incorrect in your assumptions.
HFY is not for everyone. And if learning WT in closed environment without any interaction or awareness of other martial arts and their techniques is what you're after, then there are plenty of schools out there that will teach you all the forms and more in two years. HFY is just not one of them.
With that said, it is my strong belief that in order to apply your Wing Chun, you have to have experience testing yourself against non-wc fighters. This is not being dodgy, this is simply the reality of combat.
As for how long it takes to learn something... Like I mentioned earlier, it depends on the individual and how long it takes them personally to grow and experience the different seasons of learning.
If Cimaroon wants to try out a HFY school, my offer of help still stands. The rest is up to him.
I think the "two year Black Belt" thing does not mean you will have a black belt in the Hung Fa Yi system. I think it was meant to express the amount of information that you will be exposed to and able to train.
Like I said almost all of my two year students not only compete at the black belt level in the sporting areana but I've had Black belts from other Martial arts assume that my two year students are sifu's themselves from discussions and exchanges. I think alot of WCK guys have had a simular experience given that WCK is a principle art and can deliver a great amount of understanding to those who work at it!
my assumptions, you said that the belts went on the forms ie white for slt etc. The guy said it was a two year black belt deal he this means that they would be doing the weapons after two years them it is dodgy. Teaching people other then vt when that is what they pay for is dodgy especially if they haven't learnt vt to trial this, sounds like a way to make the new guys feel bad and your seniors better as they already know what to do. I think trainin with other styles when you know what you are doing is great. Making people do it before they learn vt is stupid and doesn't help your vt. It sounds like they care more about the money. I understand you are standing up for your system but that school sound like a rip off. That school not your system.
It is clear that you misunderstand what was being said. To assume the worse seems to be bad business! LOL! Teaching someone basic martial arts skills does not make others feel good and others bad! you can test out of the general M.A. part! How does that make someone feel bad LOL!
The black belt being that is being discussed is not a "black belt" in HFY. It is not to teach one person the real stuff and another on other stuff. It is to give a great general martial arts education and then having them specialize. it is as simple as that.
I'm sorry that you have had negative experiences with people in the martial arts business "just for money" But your negative previous experiences and old wounds do not apply here.
Maybe just a misunderstanding on both parts! (I'll take 50% of the blame) LOL!
Bennyvt,
a few things you might want to take into consideration...
1. Weapons were originally taught before hand forms. In this day an age, we choose not to teach weapons before hand forms because it makes more sense give the conditions of our times.
2. If/when you become a teacher.. you will understand that there will be students who come through your door who want to learn WC, but have absolutely no athletic ability whatsoever. Meaning they can't even balance on one foot, or move any of their limbs freely... some can't even hold their fingers straight. Hand-eye coordination is a fantasy for them. Really it get's that bad.
SOME, not all, of our schools have chosen to implement these introductions to MA classes with good reason. It is a way to not only broaden a students understanding of MA, but also get their blood flowing a bit quicker.
I however teach at a HFY school where we do not implement these intro courses, and let me tell you what happens...
During SLT drills, that student is often on the sidelines developing basic skills anyways.
So really it's a half dozen one way... and a half dozen the other.
In an ideal world. Of course, WC foundation should be taught first... but sometimes you don't even have any ground to lay your foundation on.
^ LOL! I bet as an instructor you see all sorts. WOW
if i went to a running coach and wanted to learn to sprint and he said he would have to teach me to hurdle first them he would be dodgy. If some one came and wanted to learn ma then its all cool. But the guy wanted vt so teach him it. And putting someone with no experience (as if he had by your explanation he would not need to do it) against others that have, is not fair to the new people but makes your students feel good as they can play with there people. i do teach (not at moment due to work) and an also a personal trainer and strength and conditioning coach so i know how to teach. If they have no fitness or ability you take your time and they develop it. Vt teacher you all there things. And i would like to know where it says that the weapons were taught first. Must be the only system to teach the weapons first. I thought the saying goes, you cant use the weapons until you hands are good enough in case you lord your weapon.
bennyvt,
I've tried to be helpful here, but frankly I have better things to do than help you with your reading comprehension skills or understanding of history for that matter.
Particularly because you insist on drawing wild unfounded conclusions of your own... not to mention making up things and going off on strange tangents.
Obviously these are based on your own experiences and you need to deal with them as such.
good luck with that, and best of luck with your training
You have tried to be helpful. You have tried to justify why your school does what it does. I was writing to the guy that made the thread. I think it sounded dodgy.
Using examples is not going off on wierd tangents. I have said
*You shouldnt be able to get a black belt (I find belts as a money spinner) in two years as the guy said was advertised.
*Why do you have to learn something else in order to learn VT. If your fitness or balance etc isnt good VT will fix these problems.
*Expecting someone to fork out $200 dollars up front sounds crazy. I also give a free class as an intro like one of you said. Which we both agree on.
*If the guy wants to learn about other styles why not teach him VT and he can learn the others on his own, or train with other guys (which I do and have no problem what so ever with) once he actually knows VT.
This has gone from being a person asking for peoples opionons to you justifying why that school did it, to lets make out this guy doesnt know anything so we look better, hence the "IF/when you become a teacher", wow thats not condesending at all.. You and the other guy turned this into a talk about the way your system is run. I was talking about the school that this guy went to. Their are schools that I dont like in the WSLVT system but I dont justify them trying to take peoples money just because they are from the same system.
Some understand and some don't understand some choose not to understand.
* No one said you have to learn other things in order to learn wing chun.
- Nothing wrong with giving someone a general martial arts foundation to build off of. If you don't need it test out out of it. If you don't like it all of this is your choice. (nothing dodgy about that) I'm sure there are methods and things your school does that I might take issue with. can't please everyone.LOL!
* Everything we do we do with purpose and reason. You may call that justification.
-That's fine you have a choice to agree or disagree. Some people like some don't that is one of the reasons we have many schools styles etc...
*belts and sashes have been debated for years.
- I can see a down side and a upside with them. you have pointed out how thier could be a downside. The upside is that when you have more then 20 students you can have some Idea of what they have been exposed to with out constantly asking them. Once again the choice is yours belts no belts.
It all boils down to the fact that you have a choice and a opinion. I can only urge others to come a see first hand. HFY is not for everyone! The problem may be the school the teacher or the person wanting to learn. I just urge people to take the time do the research before investing thier time and resources. Find a school, teacher, system etc.. that fits! I'm just glad people are getting involved with martial arts no matter what art!
So, like when ... never?
Because a cannon, a rifle, a revolver, a peppergun, and/or a lowly single-shot couldn't quite kill you as dead from a distance of 20 feet or more?
Notwithstanding the amusement I find in the first two responses essentially contradicting each other, I am still interested in duende's response.
Outside of niche communities who really does carry around bladed weapons or handguns? Not many people are living subsistence lifestyles, collecting firewood and water, hunting, etc.
Of course they could... but they only had one shot. If I had, say, a sword, and some agility skills, I'd still have the perception (well founded or otherwise) that I could reach my target and hack'n'slash repeatedly before they had a chance to reload.
With a semi, it's a different story. One shot may miss, maybe the second, but from then on it's a game of who homes in first... and the semi's chances get better the closer I get. In a world of semis, a bladed strategy leads quickly to tragedy.
P.S. Maybe instead of "Semiauto" being the endgame of blades, I should say "repeat loader?"
Hey Tom,
That quote of mine was in response bennyvt's misassumption and to describe why we do not teach weapons first or after two years.
However, not only is the answer to your question quite obvious, but it's already pretty much been answered at this point. One needs to look no further than our own law enforcement or military personal and see the weapons they carry.
If you'd like to debate the fact that mankind's advancement in technology and military weaponry have been linked since the dawn of our times, then I suggest you start a new thread and do it there.
Best,
Alex
So, does this mean HFY did or did not start with weapons originally?
Countless other styles start with weapons or introduce them very early in a training curriculum, especially those which are for combat.
Yeah, unless you count the several billion in the third world.Quote:
Not many people are living subsistence lifestyles, collecting firewood and water, hunting, etc
Hey
I was asking if the two year black belt thing and the describtion given by you guys if that meant a black belt was up to the weapons, thats pretty simple. An assumption would have been," weell you should be able to get a black belt in two years as you cant do the knives that early." I was simply asking a question
I think in the case that we are discussing the term "Black belt" is used to comunicate to the average Joe looking for martial arts that He/She will be exposed to information and training that will allow them to be equivilant to the industry standard of a black belt. (I know this can be very subjective)
I think alot my fellow kung fu guys can relate when they go to a so-called open tournament and the Kwoon ranking is not honored in the same light as other belts such as the "black belts".
I've been accused of entering a black belt into color division when that student had only been training with me only 1 year and six months. Of course she is a very athletic person but the next time I went ahead and entered her as a black belt and she took first even against boys in all of her division (continuous and kick boxing) except forms! (of course)
I want to make clear that we don't judge a rank by competition levels. However this is just a example of how the term "Black belt" is used to comunicate to John Q public. I can understand why some would have a issue with this. But that's fine it's a free country take it or leave it. It's just a matter of personal choice. As long as your are doing martialarts I'm glad to see people keeping the energy going!
No this is not a reference as to when you start weapons training. I think alot of families have many different traditions as to when they start. I know in most cases I have not had anyone just walk in a say "teach me the knives". LOL! I can't say I would teach someone to use sharp weapons on the terms of just walkking in and saying that anyways! LOL!
cool man. It was just when he said the shaolin two year black belt it sounded weird. As i said i have no problem with the style just what the guy said sounded bad
Sure, and I bet they're debating whether they should change their martial arts curriculum.
I am sure that the reason why some systems have kept their training as "weapons first" is because there is still a prevalent weapons culture. The majority of posters on this board will be living in societies where there are laws banning the carrying and even ownership of weapons.
Stand in a public place. Look at a person in front of you, a person to the left of you, a person to the right of you, and a person in back of you.
One or more of the five of you is armed.
Does the historical HFY progression introduce weapons at the start of the progression or soon after as is not done today?