I'm learning the basic simplified Yang 24 form. What percentage would you say that the simplified set has of the long set? Maybe 50% of the concepts?
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I'm learning the basic simplified Yang 24 form. What percentage would you say that the simplified set has of the long set? Maybe 50% of the concepts?
Are you talking the PRC(Beijing) 24 form??
As far as I know the shortest actual yang form is the CMC 37 one.
The 24 should only lack the repetitions contained in the long forms.
But all the concepts & principles should be there, regardless of the lenght of the form.
I can always ask my sihing for more details he teaches the Beijing 24 at the kwoon.
Cheers.
The simplified 24 Posture routine is based in large part on Yang style but is NOT a Yang form. It has a lot of similarities but a lot of differences.
It was intended to be a starting point and set a lot of basic foundations while removing some of the more stressful moves...by that I mean those moves that might put a joint like the knee in danger if done incorrectly.
Similarities...
Part horse's mane...arms are similar..stepping is different in that Yang does not employ the rock back and then step forward. This step is used in 24 for this, brush knee etc...
Brush knee...same except for the rock step.
White Crane...the arms are in a slightly different position and hte method to get to it is different.
Step back and whirl arms...the timing is different and 24 allows for a large leg raise.
Grasp Sparrow's Tail...similar in flow but very different in the details.
Gao Tan Ma...shifts forward in 24 and sits back in Yang.
Wave hands...the combination of stepping from side of the body is different as are the hand details.
Lower snake body...the stance is a true crouch stance in 24 and the foot does not shift as well as the hand turn facing you instead of staying palm out...
Fair lady... no 4 directions...other than that very similar.
Pick up needle ...similar but some minor details are different.
Fan through back...almost the same.
Bai Lan Chui - very different.
embrace tiger...different weight and emphasis...
So...there are enough differences to see that is is not exactly a Yang form.
Yang short form I learned has 36 postures (37 in some schools)
Yang Long form I learned has 108.
I never learned any other Yang stuff besides these two forms.
The short is an abbreviation of the long with much of the same content but less repitition on left and right sides. Kinda like if you didn't have enough time to do the long, you could do the short and still get your training in.
cheers
tai chi is not a form it is a concept,the order of movements or amount does not matter,
what does matter is the quality and consistancy of your practice,
100%,behind every motion,if i must use a word.
the entire 108 is represented in the 24 form,
depends on your view.
I really wouldn't go so far as to say that the entire 108 traditional set is represented in the modern 24 set. I used to train wushu for some time before getting some knee injuries and then moved to training in taiji. I was initially exposed to what I tend to call modern or beijing style taiji, but I've come to start referring to it as wushu-taiji due to the similarities between the modern set (24,48, etc) and the modern wushu competition routines. The body mechanics for both of these tend to be the same in stance and posture with some slight differences in the wushu-taiji in that a bit more emphasis is placed on full/empty, open/close, etc.
I agree with redfist in that taiji could be considered as a "concept" or a "set of principles". I would also agree with redfist that the order of movement is not as important as the body mechanics and the structural integrity of each movement, but from my own experience and observation of having trained in over 3 years or wushu-taiji, that it really depends on the instructor. For instance, if the instructor is trained on taiji principles, you'll receive a different take as opposed to the instructor being trained in "competition style". To me, it really depends on what you're looking for.
Initially, I was very happy studying the competition style (wushu-taiji) and enjoyed it immensely due to the work involved in maintaining low postures and such. I probably would have continued training in wushu-taiji until I had to relocate for work. In doing so, I found and trained with a former national korean gold medalist in taiji. To me, it just got to the point that a lot of the movements in the "competition set" are done for "aesthetic appeal" without too many thoughts on structural integrity and martial application. To me, once you've trained in the competition sets for some time, it just get's to the point where you're learning different choreography.
This led me to my current instructor and he teaches a more traditional yang style form that he learned from TT Liang. He's actually one of the few "disciples" of Liang. Anyhow, he refers to it as the 150 yang long form but it's also known as the Yang 88, 103, or 108, depending on counting conventions. Initially, I picked up on the sequence pretty well, but when it got done to the nitty gritty on details and principles, it was a whole world apart from the instruction given by the "former gold medalist". I'm very happy that I've found my current instructor.
This topic actually reminded me of an article that Paul Lam wrote in regards to the 24 form. I'll paste a few snippets below:
==========================
It is well understood that not many people are willing or able to spend two hours per day to practise Tai Chi. Since most practitioners use Tai Chi for health improvement, there is no need for doing this. This is not to say the fundamental principles and the intrinsic power of the art should be changed.
In order to popularise Tai Chi; the Chinese National Sports Committee had authorised the country's four most renowned Tai Chi experts to compose The 24 Forms. Based mainly on the Yang style, and by eliminating many repetitions and retaining most of the essential principles of Tai Chi, the 88 Forms was condensed to only 24 Forms. The 24 Forms is easier to learn, to remember and practice, the whole set takes around five minutes. A busy person can do three rounds in 20 minutes (including warm up exercises). This will be adequate to improve and maintain good health. Most clinical studies on the many health benefits of Tai Chi are based on people practising this set of Forms. The 24 Forms very quickly became the most popular Forms in the world.
From the following source
==========================
In any case, I think the modern sets are good for people to get an introduction to taiji. To me, without incorporating the internal principles of taiji, forms are just empty movements tied together in a nice choreography. IMO, taiji incorporates mind/body/spirit which could lead to the integration of meditation/health/martial. I would try to look for something that incorporates all of these aspects.
Just my thoughts.. HTH.
A.
My experience is similar to apham4.
My first IMA style was "health orientated" even though we did push hands and weapons training too.
My current Sifu lays heavy enphasis on the TJQ principles and basics.
It is like learning to swim in a small Pond and than trying to swim in the ocean.
Progress now feels a lot slower, but the training is a lot tougher.
Healthwise I feel the same benefit, but the martial side and understanding of what goes into correct TJQ is mindblowing.
Just some thoughts.
The counting of 88 postures is NOT a traditional set. There IS an 88 Posture set that was created by Li Tianjie. It is very much a copy of Yang Chengfu's traditional routine with some modifications.
If it were in any other area, the 88 would be classified as an example of plagarism. In a college setting, it would get a student expelled or a professor fired - plagarism is basically intellectual theft.
As for being in T. T. Liang's lineage, that is Cheng Manching's set. It is in itself different from Classical Yang form. In fact, there are enough differences that many consider it s completely different style similar to classifying Wu style as different from Yang.
You also have the folks doing GuangPing variation of Yang style and they are quickly become their own style....
Hi GLW, thanks for the info regarding the 88 set. Anyhow, I always thought the long sets were the same but differed in counting.
In regards to TT Liang's lineage, I've been referencing the long form in comparison to the 103 done by Yang Zhenduo and I'd have to say they are pretty different. Some of the transitional posture of the CMC form have been taken out (shoulder push, extra brush knee/twist steps, etc). In addition, a lot of the hand posture and frame is a bit different and I would contribute it due to it coming from CMC. Good points tho, GLW. I think I will have to modify my profile to reflect that it is different from the yang family set.
Would you consider the set done by Yang Zhenduo and Yan Jun to be the traditional yang set? Do you know if the Tung (Dong) family set is similar to this? It's pretty interesting how many different variations within the labeled "traditional" sets. Good info and points ;)
The routine that Dong, Yang Zhenduo, and Fu Zhongwen all do/did was Yang Chengfu's. In China, it is most commonly referred to as 85 Posture Yang Style.
Supposedly, Cheng Manching learned the same routine. He claimed to have learned from Yang Chengfu and then from others later. His claim about Yang Chengfu is not disputed by the Yang lineage holders such as Fu Zhongwen or Yang Zhenduo...but the amount of time and the closeness of the relationship with YCF has been (there was an article in Tai Chi magazine about this a couple of years ago.).
Dong claimed to have been working on a Yang Fast form with Yang Chengfu. He maintained that the routine was not quite finished and so he completed it. Therefore, those learning from the Dong lineage do the barehand, sword, saber, and Fast barehand.
Fu Zhongwen, Yang Zhenduo, and others maintain that the fast set was Dong's invention and that there is not one in Yang from YCF. The claim from Yang Zhenduo is dubious given his age when his father, YCF, died (9 or 10 if memory serves). The statement from Fu supporting this lends credence to Yang Zhenduo's because Fu travelled a lot with Yang, was quite close to him, and was related via marriage as a sort of nephew.
Yang Zhenduo physically resembles his father. However, while many will look at the postures in pictures from YCF and say that they are very very close, there are others who reportedly saw YCF do the routines that maintain that Fu Zhongwen was more exacting and faithful to the way YCF did the routines. In fact, in earlier years (1950's or so), a common statement meant to play down Fu was that he did NOT add anything to the system but merely strove very well to emulate his teacher. Of course, Fu took that as a compliment because that was exactly what he tried to do.
Fu's body build, while not as large as YCF, was still close enough to YSF's so that his methods could indeed look a lot like his teachers.
Dong, on the other hand, was slimmer...and had other martial background as well. So, is the difference between the two accounted for simply by personality, body build, or previous learning and other influences...who knows.
They are all doing the same routine but the flavor is a bit different for each one.
Cheng Manching, however, is very different. I have seen footage of him doing the 85 posture YCF routine. His flavor was not as strong or as solid as the other three. What it was like in person...can't say....it is at this point more of a matter of personal preference and aesthetics.
An interesting note.... Yang Chengfu at one time after finalizing the 85 posture Yang routine was quoted as stating that he felt to add anything to the set would be redundant (mind you I AM paraphrasing) and to take anything more out or shorten it would lessen the value and therefore be disastrous to the routine. He seemed to have felt that it was about as good as it could get.
In that light, Fu Zhongwen and Dong Yinjie, to my knowledge, never changed or created a shortened form. Dong had the fast set...but that is in addition to the long one.
Yang Zhenduo has created a shortened competition set...but he maintains that the long form is the one to train and that the short one is merely for competition and fun.
Cheng Manching created his 37 posture (or whtever the number) and once he had his shorter set or sets, is reported to have pretty much stopped working with the long form. Those in this lineage most often do NOT know the long set and if they do, most likely learned it from another lineage.
to add,
traditionally 108 is used as a numeration to siginify completion,therefore the 85 is often refered to as the 108,
nothing to do with the number of movements in the actual form.
also,the lineage inheritor was the only one to receive the complete transmission of methods,known as chung moon,and his personnel form would be the 108.
this is very rarely seen in modern times.
chen wei ming developed the 24 yang form around1955/56.he was the first disciple of yang chen fu.
yang zhen do and yang jun teach their version of the yang style
very percisely,of excellent quality,what you would expect from lineage holders,
i reccomend attending a seminar with them,as far as form instruction goes, i feel anyone training yang style would come away satisfied.
I heard from a Fu Zhongwen disciple that he was hard as steel, and his movements very soft, and that he was always kidding like a little boy.
The counting of 85 does actually refer to the number of movements. Where the confusion on that one comes in is that things like Brush Knee are referred to as Brush Knee on both sides (1 movement) instead of 2 or 3.
Fu Zhongwen's son as a book out that ennumerates the postures in the 85 count. For the same routine, I have seen 103, 104, 108 and a couple of other strange numbers.
As for Fu Zhongwen personally, he was a very congenial person. Truly liked coconut milk :) He was bothered by a number of people who had recently come to the west claiming he was their teacher when all they ever really did was attend a seminar and have a group picture with him.
So who're some Fu Zhongwen's "top" students living today?
Thanks for the post. I really enjoyed reading the info. I've heard a similar acct regarding CMC that you had mentioned. But from what I heard, there's been some controversy as to how long CMC spent with YCF. In addition, I've heard there are some disputes regarding the level of instruction that CMC received from YCF. But in any case, I agree with your notion regarding that it's a matter of preference and aestethics. My friend who has spent a great deal of time training in the traditional yang stye via the Dong lineage told me to be weary or of the postures.
I'm kind of curious since you mentioned that since CMC created the shorter set, then it makes me wonder how TT Liang stuck with the longer set. The sequence is very close to that of Yang Zhenduo with some slight differences in posture (YZD's looking much more "fuller"). I was under the assumption that Liang trained with CMC in Taiwan and that he practiced with him then. I've heard that are differences between CMC's US students and his taiwanese students and just assumed that to be the case here. I guess since Liang's long form is different from YZD's, then it must've been the case that either CMC added to it or that Liang supplmented his training elsewhere. Kind of makes you wonder.
Just wanted to add a link that has some compartive yang postures between YCF and the members of the Dong family.
Nice discussion :)
Brad:
Mei Ying Sheng
http://www.geocities.com/meiyingsheng/
Student: Ted Knecht
http://home.earthlink.net/%7Etwk/
Ted, at one time, lived in Columbus but is now near Cleveland. He has tapes available of Mei Ying Sheng and Mei Ying Sheng was a real disciple of Fu Zhong Wen. Ted is a very good teacher and is fluent in Chinese and knows the culture well. He is a professional translator with both experience and proper academic credentials. YOu could always visit.
You can read more about Mei Ying Sheng in the book:
Tai Chi Training in China: Masters, Teachers, and Coaches
Howard Thomas
See you at Arnold's?
As for Fu's students..
He Weiqi in New York learned from Fu Zhongwen as well as Madame Wang Jurong.
He Weiqi's neice, Jenny Tang, learned from Fu and also assisted him in his later years.
There are others such as Wu Xiaoping in Houston. She learned from her parents, Madame Wang Jurong and Dr. Wu Chengde as well as from Gu Luxin, Ma Yuehliang, Wu Yinghua, and Fu Zhongwen.
Fu's lineage is a bit harder to find in the US.
Dong's lineage is easier.
Many in China felt that Fu and was more of a successor due to learning for a longer time and assiting YCF than many others...but Dong was qlose to him as well.
Many that claim connection to Yang Zhenduo learned in seminars or a month here or there in trips to China...
So, the real thing on lineage starts with who you learned from...but doesn't end there. There is also how long did you learn, how close were you to the teacher, and did you truly understand what was taught and learn it well or did you muddle through.
bottom line - if you are happy with a teacher and are getting benefit from classes and not getting ripped off or led into a cult...then be happy.
If lineage and exact correct method is important to you, work on basics while you look for the perfect teacher. AND...when you find them, be prepared to move to them. The mountain will NOT come to Mohammed.
T.T.Liang did learn his form from Cheng in Taiwan. It was after they had been in America for a while that thet parted company. Unfortunately I feel it was Cheng's American students who remained doing Chengs stuff after his eath which caused a lot of disinformation and disruption especially with Liang. Liang like all of Cheng's Taiwanese students were taught the Yang short and Long forms. Cheng taught his 37 posture short form pretty much just to the American students and a simplified sword form.
I don't want to upset people here but the American students of Cheng did not get as much as the Taiwanese disciples. This could be why the remaining Taiwanese disciples of Cheng who still live in America tend to dissasociate themselves from the American branch.
As far as amount of time spent with Yang, i've read quotes of the Dong family that thought Cheng spent only 6 months with Yang, but the truth is more like that he spent about 5-7 years in total. After Yang Cheng did not go off and study with anyone else, Tai Chi-wise anyway. there is always the account that he was not looked upon too well by the Yang's because it was found out that he had studied for a while with someone else while under the tutelage of Yang, supposedly a Taoist monk. This, if irrefutable, could constitute the stigma that traditional Yang sty;list have inherited against Cheng, prehaps!!?
Hi R.Monkey,
I always thought there was a difference between Cheng's american and his taiwanese students, but never had it verified. There have been some students who have trained under american students of Cheng that have come to my current school and they do say there are some differences between what they're taught and what my current teacher learned from Liang.
Thanks for the info.
Ohh.. just wanted to post a linke that I had found while searching for comparisons between CMC and YZD.
See the link below, pretty interesting:
http://www.sataichi.com/compare.html
Hi all.
cha kuen, sorry I can't answer you q? as i''m only about half way through this form. But, here's a couple of hopefully useful sites for you to check out that have video, pix, txt etc that cover the 24.
Seeya
http://www.chentaichi.com/
http://www.soton.ac.uk/~maa1/chi/net...hformenter.htm
http://www.taiji.de/taiji/head8e/index.htm
http://www.gilmanstudio.com/OnLine_Class/Lesson03.htm
The difference between those who learned in Taiwan and the Americans...well that may also be the difference between the Chinese and Anglo students. There is a typical approach to teach watered down to non-chinese that may be in effect with Cheng Manching....
"As far as amount of time spent with Yang, i've read quotes of the Dong family that thought Cheng spent only 6 months with Yang, but the truth is more like that he spent about 5-7 years in total. "
This 5-7 year account is from Cheng and his group in Taiwan. The refutation came from a number of Yang chengfu's closer students including Fu Zhongwen and if memory serves, some of the dong Family. similarly the Yang family at this time do not seem to regard him as being in their lineage.
Interestingly, I HAVE seen film of Cheng doing the traditional set. It may have been what he was showing or any number of reasons (he may ahve been just appeasing the filmer so not showing his best) but it did not seem to compare with people like Fu Zhongwen, or Yang Zhenduo.
The disciple I'm referring is maestro Luis Pedreros, I don't know how much time he learnt form Fu Zhongwen but I think he is disciple of his son too and from others arts like Chen Tai Chi from Chen Xiao Wang and Chen Xiao Xing or CLF Luohan Qigong from Chen Yong Fa.
http://personals.ip.ictonline.es/%2b...os/LUISFUc.jpg
He is on the video:
http://www.fushengyuan-taichi.com.au/video.htm
Here go's nothing...
Im gonna open myself up to a bit of fire probarly over this one but seeing as this is an interesting discussion and some very knowledgeable people are posting im hoping someone else may know what im talking about.
My linage has a Yang 'traditional' two man form, its a fairly long and complicated set and first contact is made when both partys meet palms with each standing in single whip face to face. From then on the form basicaly never breaks contact.
According to my sifu.
My sifu's Tai Chi comes from his family, his grandfather was a student of Yang Chen Fu in his reasonably early days and was taught along with several others buisnesmen basicaly for a large sum of money. This may sound crass but it was expected that each would be taught proparly and as such the Tai Chi is of a high level and contains all the other hall marks of the style of that time. No short form, long form of 85, short and long sword form, short and long sabre although my sifu now only practices the short, spear or staff, push hands, Doi Da (sounds like that said in Chinese) which is the two man set.
Again according to my sifu this set *was* taught by Yang Chen Fu but only to some students, he also claims this form was from Yang Lu Chan and not Yang Chen Fu's creation( yeah yeah i know). As a prime example my sifu claims YCF stopped teaching this set later in his life and even within the Yang family only YCF eldest son actualy practiced it. My sifu believes this was mainly due to the intervension of the govenment in many Kung Fu schools and YCF not wishing to come under to much scuritiny changed quite a bit of the outward apperence of what he was teaching. This would also be around the same time YCF's postures became much larger and he stopped performing the form with any fa-ging in public.
Ive read elsewhere that this set was a creation of one of YCF's students. The only thing i cant understand here is my sifu's grandfather learnt from YCF directly so i cant get this link.
The other thing which supports my sifus claim is by simply looking at the set. Its complicated fairly fast contains fa-ging and can be done in multiple ways to try and offset your partner. The circles are smaller and there is is a fair amount of actual punching and striking as oppossed to just pushing and pulling.
Im just interested if anyone has any experience with this set, i only know what ive been told. Ive read some other explanations and know of some other linages who practice this set including (ive heard) Yang Shao Hao's linage.
Im not trying to imply that what ive stated here is the gospel truth, its simply what ive picked up from broken conversations with my sifu. My sifus english is far from perfect and my Chinese is non existant so there is of course also a chance ive misinterpreted some of this sets history.
Anyway, anyone else know anything about this?
How strange that one of Yang Cheng Fu's best and his first and eldest disciple Chen Wei-ming had nothing but good things to say about Cheng and knew of Cheng spending more than months but years with Yang. Yang cheng fu trusted and respected Cheng Wei ming and I feel that his accounts , admittedly not in great detail or length, seem to contradict Dong and other "CLOSE" disciples of Yang. I do respect Fu Zhong-wen and Dong Yijing and there are wiothout a singluar dount good students of Yang, but their animosity towards Cheng seems less like stating facts but more like as I say animosity towards him, which intrinsically could very well give a whole slant on their comments.
This is natuarlly a lot of conjecture, and Cheng's martial capability were never in doubt. I cannot and do not know wht Cheng did not continue to keep Yang's form intact for all, maybe he as an individual was very much the opposite of someone from the east hoodwinking students from the west, who knows? I think more than hoodwinking, Cheng actually provided for his American students what he felt they could cope with otherwise he would of tried to eleveate them to the standard of his Tawainese disciples, maybe!!?
One of the things that may enter into it is Cheng's like for drink.
Such things in life can and do impact one's abilities.
For example, Yang Chengfu was known to be lively and powerful and able to raise his legs high in single stance and kick. However, due to his weight and health, his abilities toward the end of his life lessened.
Cheng's may have softened due to his choices. He may have shown earlier students one way...lost some of his abilities later...and later students another way.
I had one teacher that had hip problems. My group began learning while he did not have the trouble. Our stances looked one way. Then one hip was bothering him and he had a lean due to it. Those that learned then had the lean as well. Later the hips evened but were higher. Those students learning then had even but high stances....so it goes.
As for Chen Weiming you have to wonder why. Dong, Fu, and immediate family vs. Chen in words. Bad Blood...possible. Friendship with one and not another...possible.
Wu De - not willing to say anything but good because it does not affect you...very much in keeping with Chinese culture.
So...who knows.
What is sure is that there have been enough changes from YCF to Cheng's method that they are truly distinct and probably more like separate styles.
I DO question how a faithful student could modify a routine to shorten it after his teacher stated that to make further changes would be disastrous...but that is ME....again, this is fun for thought but in the end, if you like what you do, do it well, and get benefit...whatever works.
1. Opening of Tai Chi
2. Grasp Sparrow's Tail: Left
3. Grasp Sparrow's Tail: Right
4. Single Whip
5. Step Up and Raise Hands
6. White Crane Spreads its Wings
7. Brush Knee, Twist Step: Right
8. Play the Pei Pa (guitar)
9. Brush Knee, Twist Step: Right
10. Brush Knee, Twist Step: Left
11. Brush Knee, Twist Step: Right
12. Play the Pei Pa (guitar)
13. Brush Knee, Twist Step: Left
14. Strike With Fist
15. Step Up, Deflect, Parry, Punch
16. Apparent Closure
17. Embrace Tiger, Return to Mountain
18. Grasp Sparrow's Tail: Right
19. Single Whip
20. Fist To Elbow
21. Repulse Monkey: Right & Left
22. Repulse Monkey: Right & Left
23. Repulse Monkey: Right
24. Slanting Flying
25. Step Up and Raise Hands
26. White Crane Spreads its Wings
27. Brush Knee, Twist Step: Right
28. Needle to the Bottom of the Sea
29. Fan Through Back
30. Turn and Strike With Fist (4 times)
31. Step Up, Deflect, Parry & Punch
32. Grasp Sparrow's Tail: Right
33. Single Whip
34. Wave Hands Through Clouds (5 times)
35. Single Whip
36. High Pat on Horse
37. Right Toe Kick
38. Left Toe Kick
39. Turn and Right Heel Kick
40. Brush Knee and Twist Step: Right
41. Brush Knee and Twist Step: Left
42. Step Across and Strike
43. White Snake Sticks Out its' Tongue
44. Step Up, Deflect, Parry & Punch
45. Right Heel Kick
46. Strike Tiger at Left
47. Strike Tiger at Right
48. Right Heel Kick
49. Turn to Double Temple Punch
50. Left Heel Kick
51. Turn and Right Heel Kick
52. Strike With Fist
53. Step Up, Deflect, Parry & Punch
54. Apparent Closure
55. Embrace Tiger Return to Mountain
56. Grasp Sparrow's Tail: Right
57. Single Whip to Side
58. Parting the Wild Horse's Mane: Right
59. Parting the Wild Horse's Mane: Left
60. Parting the Wild Horse's Mane: Right
61. Grasp Sparrow's Tail: Left
62. Grasp Sparrow's Tail: Right
63. Single Whip
64. Lady Works Shuttles (1)
65. Lady Works Shuttles (2)
66. Lady Works Shuttles (3)
67. Lady Works Shuttles (4)
68. Grasp Sparrow's Tail: Left
69. Grasp Sparrow's Tail: Right
70. Single Whip
71. Wave Hands Through Clouds (7 times)
72. Single Whip
73. Snake Creeps down
74. Golden rooster Stands on Left Leg
75. Golden rooster Stands on Right Leg
76. Repulse Monkey: Right & Left
77. Repulse Monkey: Right & Left
78. Repulse Monkey: Right
79. Diagonal Flying
80. Step Up and Raise Hands
81. White Crane Spreads its Wings
82. Brush Knee, Twist Step: Right
83. Needle to the Bottom of the Sea
84. Fan Through Back
85. Turn and Strike With Fist (4 times)
86. Step Up, Deflect, Parry & Punch
87. Grasp Sparrow's Tail: Right
88. Single Whip
89. Wave Hands Through Clouds (3 times)
90. Single Whip
91. High Pat on Horse
92. Cross Hands
93. Right Heel Kick
94. Strike Groin With Fist
95. Brush Knee and Strike
96. Grasp Sparrow's Tail: Right
97. Single Whip
98. Snake Creeps down
99. Step Up to Seven Stars
100. step back and Ride the Tiger
101. Turn and Sweep Lotus with One Leg
102. Draw Bow to Shoot Tiger
103. Strike With Fist
104. Step Up
105. Deflect
106. Parry & Punch
107.Single Whip
108. Closing of Tai Chi
Now, you can break this down as many ways as you like because of the repititions (hence the short form). But there you have 108.
Tai Chi is concepts, principles and theories, but don't discount the form of it. The form is very important and in it are contained these concepts and principles through application.
You could probably even ramp up the form to more than 108 if you break it down into the minutia.
Concepts are principles are completely lost to those who do not understand the form first. This is why you learn the form first.
Then you learn the principles and theories and yin yang as you practice and move forward with this.
cheers
Sorry Kung Lek,
I don't see the Shoulder Stroke. You have to count it as it is one of the 13 postures of Tai Chi. So I think concepts and principles are more important than forms.:D Definately more important than how you "count" and I ought to know.;)
apology accepted count.
but, concepts and theories are only words without the practice of form. You can't implement theory, nor can you understand concepts without the framework of the form.
Neither has more importance. They are all one piece. To neglect any of it is to neglect all of it.
besides, I understood there would be no math :D
cheers
Yes but principles are theories put into action. Who writes better fortune cookies here? I'm just jerking your chain.:cool: I learned all the forms but nothing helps as much as isolating the principles and drilling them over and over. Who can say how the ancients trained? I believe forms are an afterthought just like theory is an afterthought.
1. Part the mane 3 times
2. White Crane spreads wings
3. Brush knee twist step
4. Play guitar
5. Step back and repulse the monkey 4 times.
6. Grasp the sparrows tail left
7. Grasp the sparrows tail right
8. Single whip
9. Cloud Hands 3 times
10. Single Whip
11. High Pat on the horses head
12. Separate legs right
12. Double fists piercing
13. Seperate legs left
14. White snake creeps down
15. Golden rooster stands on 1 leg
16. White snake creeps down
17. Golden rooster stands on 1 leg
18. Weeving at the shuttles right
19. Weeving at the shuttles left
20. Needle at sea bottom
21. Fan through the back
22. Step up parry and punch
23. Cross hands and push
24. Apparent Closing
I guess that works as 24, unless you count sparrows tail as 4 techniques :( Now you can compare with Kung Lek's list and see what's missing. ;)
I agree. From the perspective that they (form/theory) are transmission mechanism developed following realization of principles of reality.Quote:
I believe forms are an afterthought just like theory is an afterthought.
But, in the case of the neophyte who has not discovered the reality on his or her own, the form is paramount as is accompanying theory implemented through learning and practice applications. Form is a primary method of transmission in any manifestation in any field of study.
As for the chain yanking, Don't make me get my tiddly winks!!!
cheers
My instructor is of opinion that 24 simplified set is not taijichuan. The set embodies no principles and he say he never met anyone who practice this set and can use it as a martial arts. He has slightly different opinon about 48 set. Because this is combination of other 5 style, if you decently understand all 5 style you might used it as a martial arts. But for him "if" part was big IF.
Is this 24 simplified set that bad?
I don't know and almost certainly have not seen the 24-set that you're referring too. However, keep in mind that one cannot learn taijiquan as a martial art by exclusively doing forms regardless of the form done. Forms are a method of training. I gather that the 24-form you're referring to trains some things that your teacher doesn't consider to have martial content. It may train the pre-requisites like openning the joints and proper relaxation.
But again... I don't the form to which you refer.
Hello.. you may want to refer to the following threads for similar discussion:
(http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...threadid=19837)
(http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...threadid=19386)
(http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...threadid=20468)
Hope that helps.
wujimon
Thank you wujimon for the links.Quote:
Originally posted by Prairie
I don't know and almost certainly have not seen the 24-set that you're referring too. However, keep in mind that one cannot learn taijiquan as a martial art by exclusively doing forms regardless of the form done. Forms are a method of training. I gather that the 24-form you're referring to trains some things that your teacher doesn't consider to have martial content. It may train the pre-requisites like openning the joints and proper relaxation.
But again... I don't the form to which you refer.
24 set is the form which every Mainland Chinese kids now learn in school and given the population of china, numerically is is the most popular form in the world. Also traditional form practioner cuss this form like bermin.
As far as I know, Cheng Man Ching 37 form is the shortest traditional form which is still considered as a complete set though other style of taijichuan do invent shortened form for learning aid as well as for the promotional value.
I practised the 24 step for almost 6 months and was never once told it would give me 'martial ability'. But as said below that applies to ANY form practised in isolation from complementary training. It is practised purely for health reasons. In fact, to my mind, it is suitable mainly for young children and old age pensions who would have trouble learning a longer form (for very different reasons).
There are several things that worry me (and my Sifu, more importantly) about the execution of the movements, but these equally apply to some other 'traditional' styles of Tai Chi.
Still, it was the first Tai Chi form i learnt and if it wasnt for that form I probably would not be doing the training that I am now.
One of my Chen TJQ teachers also runs a class teaching the 24.
Seen it, looks good when watching but there are no MA applications taught alongside with it.
They also practice the form to music.
AFAIK, the 24 was created by the PRC in the 1950's to promote health to the masses.
In Chen TJQ we are shown the applications as soon as we have learned a movement.
Realizing that 24 comes heavily from Yang style - there are many techniques that are almost identical to the Yang form...the changes in regards to the intent or application of the movement is minor in importance.
For example, Brush Knee and Twist Step. Mostly like Yang...so if you say 24 has no application there, you say the same thing about classical Yang style. Part horses mane - same thing. Ditto for Pick up needle at sea bottom, Fan through back, and Fair Lady weaves at shuttle.
Grasp Sparrow's tail is different in how it is done...but the intent is the same...you have to modify it a bit for the application but it is not that big of a departure considering how some applications in external systems are so well hidden you would NEVER guess how to use them from the form.
People like Fu Zhongwen HATED 24. His dislike came not from the form or really anything about it. He viewed it more as a unnecessary modification of his teacher's routine. His preference.
However, 24 is fine for what it is - a beginner routine for concept. By itself, it is enough for health but not enough to truly get deeply into Taijiquan. Then again, how many beginner level forms ARE good for understanding the deep aspects of any style?
Given that I haven't seen 24, I'm making wild guess. But just picking steps from particular style and puting together would be a complet mess.Quote:
Originally posted by GLW
Realizing that 24 comes heavily from Yang style - there are many techniques that are almost identical to the Yang form...the changes in regards to the intent or application of the movement is minor in importance.
For example, Brush Knee and Twist Step. Mostly like Yang...so if you say 24 has no application there, you say the same thing about classical Yang style. Part horses mane - same thing. Ditto for Pick up needle at sea bottom, Fan through back, and Fair Lady weaves at shuttle.
Grasp Sparrow's tail is different in how it is done...but the intent is the same...you have to modify it a bit for the application but it is not that big of a departure considering how some applications in external systems are so well hidden you would NEVER guess how to use them from the form.
People like Fu Zhongwen HATED 24. His dislike came not from the form or really anything about it. He viewed it more as a unnecessary modification of his teacher's routine. His preference.
However, 24 is fine for what it is - a beginner routine for concept. By itself, it is enough for health but not enough to truly get deeply into Taijiquan. Then again, how many beginner level forms ARE good for understanding the deep aspects of any style?
According to Cheng Man Ching, taijichuan was called long hand not because of its length of the form but because of it's movement being continuous. Not only each step has meaning both from martial and health perspective, how each step shift from one step to the next step is also of significant importance. My guess is that 24 step do contain number steps of Yang form but it's was put in a way which has no meaning whatsoever between steps. That's probably one of the reaons why traditionalist often do not consider 24 step as taijichuan form. It's like a film which is so badly edited that it's make no sence at all. And if that is the case, I can't see how one can even learn a concept from 24 steps.
"Given that I haven't seen 24, I'm making wild guess. But just picking steps from particular style and puting together would be a complet mess. "
If that is all you did, it would be. However, the people that put 24 together knew something about what they were doing. It is a balanced set and flows very well. There are entire sections that could be done exactly like a Yang form and would work 100%.
It was aimed at being a beginning that still maintained what Taijiquan was...but not as an endpoint.
"My guess is that 24 step do contain number steps of Yang form but it's was put in a way which has no meaning whatsoever between steps. "
Not a good guess. There is still meaning there. Most of those that voiced the negative opinions, and I have asked a few of them, really have their argument boil down to "Not the way my teacher did it" Or else they have never done the other set.
"I can't see how one can even learn a concept from 24 steps."
For Yang style, you can learn the concepts from doing nothing but Grasp Sparrow's tail. It is one of the Signature moves of Yang Style, it contains parts of mst of the other movements. Drop an arm her...you have this posture, change this there, you have this other one. In fact, if you look, you can estimate a person's level to about 75 or 80% at least in their form from viewing their Grasp Sparrow's Tail ...
Their application level..well you have to touch hands for that one :)