Which came first?

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10-02-2015, 07:51 AM
wckf92

Which came first?

Saw some mentioning (on another thread) about WC being either "knife-based" or "hands-based" (with knives being taught last and altogether different usage from hand fighting). Thought this was quite interesting so figured I'd start a thread on it...

Just wondering what y'all think regarding this? Do you think WC is based around the knives or the other way around? Did WC empty-hand evolve from knife-based ideas or was WC already codified as a "system" and then somewhere along its history the knives were added and molded to fit the hands?

Thanks!
10-02-2015, 08:22 AM
boxerbilly

I know Guy thinks not. He may be right but I would like to know too. Boxing evolved from weapons. Granted there was always a crude form of whatever but boxing as we know it today evolved from them. I swear I recall an article in one of the old Mags where someone postulated that very idea. I had forgotten about it until Bawang brought it up.

What is the consensus of the guys that know the history ?

I just did a quick search and due to time constraints. Came up empty. But I did find this one the evolution of the butterflies. Battlefield weapon. Makes sense when things get tight drop the staff ( probably would have been a spear) and go to shorter weapons. Bodies coming in from all directions. Less chance the weapon will be taken away.- http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/...utterflySwords

Guy may be right though. It could have just been adopted by WC. The guys on the boats. Like Naval vessel used. Shorter swords.
10-02-2015, 09:51 AM
guy b.

Quote:

Originally Posted by boxerbilly

Boxing evolved from weapons.

Pole would be a better candidate than knives given how fundamental it is to the system and the similarity between use of hands and pole.

Bits of the wing chun pole form show up in other MA from the region. One explanation may be that it is from military or militia training, or from a previous art common to several systems.
10-02-2015, 11:15 AM
wckf92

Quote:

Originally Posted by guy b.

Pole would be a better candidate than knives given how fundamental it is to the system and the similarity between use of hands and pole.

Bits of the wing chun pole form show up in other MA from the region. One explanation may be that it is from military or militia training, or from a previous art common to several systems.

I think I read somewhere that the pole ideas are also prevalent and embedded in WC kicking and long-range fighting strategies... clever Chinese folks! :D
10-02-2015, 12:54 PM
boxerbilly

Will either or both of you expand on that please? What empty hand techniques are pole form ? I did post a video where they were showing some of the idea. Guy, do you believe that because pole form is based more around linear attacks- thrusts?
10-02-2015, 01:02 PM
wckf92

Quote:

Originally Posted by boxerbilly

Will either or both of you expand on that please? What empty hand techniques are pole form ? I did post a video where they were showing some of the idea. Guy, do you believe that because pole form is based more around linear attacks- thrusts?

boxerbilly, essentially, if you take the pole ideas and movements, without the pole in your hands, they are sometimes used in empty hand situations. One example would be the high spearing motion seen in some pole forms... translated to empty hand means what some call the bow and arrow punch aka pole punch etc. Obviously it is only used sparingly and in certain circumstances...
Another huge benefit to pole training (as it relates to empty hand) is a massive increase in power.
10-02-2015, 01:52 PM
boxerbilly

wckf92, Like this ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6yjPGabSkk

There is an idea similar to this in boxing. Called the drop step. Same vertical fist idea. Dempsey wrote about it. Dempsey wanted no rear leg movement. I could never make it work that way. I needed to push off the rear. Launch myself. A heavy guy could probably do it with no push off the rear. Dempsey was like, basically fall forward.
10-02-2015, 02:07 PM
boxerbilly

Quote:

Originally Posted by boxerbilly

wckf92, Like this ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6yjPGabSkk

There is an idea similar to this in boxing. Called the drop step. Same vertical fist idea. Dempsey wrote about it. Dempsey wanted no rear leg movement. I could never make it work that way. I needed to push off the rear. Launch myself. A heavy guy could probably do it with no push off the rear. Dempsey was like, basically fall forward.

A more modern version of the drop step- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rPs112Vw9g - tighter, quicker lighter step.
The punches would ideally land a split second before the foot. Same time if not.
10-02-2015, 02:13 PM
wckf92

Quote:

Originally Posted by boxerbilly

wckf92, Like this ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6yjPGabSkk

Yes, kind of like that. The first part of that video is simply a movement / idea plucked from a weapons form (pole) and used empty-handed in long range situations. Additionally, repeating that move with the pole (of the correct length and weight) will greatly enhance body unity and punching power for that particular hand.
10-02-2015, 02:21 PM
boxerbilly

Quote:

Originally Posted by wckf92

Yes, kind of like that. The first part of that video is simply a movement / idea plucked from a weapons form (pole) and used empty-handed in long range situations. Additionally, repeating that move with the pole (of the correct length and weight) will greatly enhance body unity and punching power for that particular hand.

Cool. Thanks. If you are able. Please post examples of other weapons to empty hand translations please.
10-02-2015, 02:44 PM
wckf92

Quote:

Originally Posted by boxerbilly

Cool. Thanks. If you are able. Please post examples of other weapons to empty hand translations please.

Another example is the 'lifting pole' .... translated to WC leg means keeping the leg relatively straight, while lifting it violently into the groin area.
10-02-2015, 02:48 PM
boxerbilly

Quote:

Originally Posted by wckf92

Another example is the 'lifting pole' .... translated to WC leg means keeping the leg relatively straight, while lifting it violently into the groin area.

Straight leg front kick ? Maybe a little bend in the leg. How to do get more power with that? Sinking on the rear leg? A pre sink and rise back up ? Throwing the hip forward? Any and all of those? Other way? Or is it mainly speed?
10-02-2015, 03:07 PM
wckf92

1 Attachment(s)

Attachment 9628

Quote:

Originally Posted by boxerbilly

Straight leg front kick ? Maybe a little bend in the leg. How to do get more power with that? Sinking on the rear leg? A pre sink and rise back up ? Throwing the hip forward? Any and all of those? Other way? Or is it mainly speed?

Yes, generally straight, knee may or may not be bent a little, base leg should already be sunk, hip may shoot forward, and the upper body tilts back.
10-02-2015, 03:20 PM
boxerbilly

Quote:

Originally Posted by wckf92

Attachment 9628

Yes, generally straight, knee may or may not be bent a little, base leg should already be sunk, hip may shoot forward, and the upper body tilts back.

Great and you got the counter to the jab or cross there too.

It is funny. Some of the best counter to punches are kicks and some of the best counters to kicks are punches. Obviously in the ring it may have to be more push kick. No nuts.
10-02-2015, 03:56 PM
guy b.

Quote:

Originally Posted by boxerbilly

Will either or both of you expand on that please? What empty hand techniques are pole form ? I did post a video where they were showing some of the idea. Guy, do you believe that because pole form is based more around linear attacks- thrusts?

Pole ideas are identical to hand ideas. It is used like 1 arm in wing chun
10-02-2015, 05:45 PM
boxerbilly

Quote:

Originally Posted by guy b.

Pole ideas are identical to hand ideas. It is used like 1 arm in wing chun

Thank you Guy. Would you be able to post comparison videos of this is the pole technique. This is the hand version. If you are able to find them.
10-04-2015, 03:21 PM
guy b.

Quote:

Originally Posted by boxerbilly

Thank you Guy. Would you be able to post comparison videos of this is the pole technique. This is the hand version. If you are able to find them.

No, sorry. I don't have time to do this.

There is a good article about the pole on the website of David Peterson if you wish to look for yourself.
10-04-2015, 04:31 PM
boxerbilly

Quote:

Originally Posted by guy b.

No, sorry. I don't have time to do this.

There is a good article about the pole on the website of David Peterson if you wish to look for yourself.

Thank you. I will check it out.
10-05-2015, 08:42 AM
boxerbilly

Guy, nice article over at Petersons. He did mention that the butterflies are often considered the highest level of the system. Regardless if one agree or not is unimportant.
When I read that I see it as , " Oh, this is the stuff that allows one to deviate from the primary principles. I can understand that doing so to early may keep one from going back and improving on the primary's if the excel at the secondary's quicker and more effectively. At least in the beginning. But I see stuff that allows you to break the rules and get yourself back on center guard cover. What I tried to always suggest. Not to creat another art but to see what else you have until a time primary ways become very workable as a whole. For some they will not have the aptitude or length of time to ever achieve certain things. And for sport, one may in fact need to include secondary ideas to compete more successfully. If it is there, why not?

Another interesting aspect of the article. The horse stance appears to be the primary pole stance. Side stance, whatever one needs to call it. Fine by me. Recent disscussion in another forum for those that do not know. Guy knows what I speak of. So, you do not always have to face all guns forward. One side can predominate. His reasons given, environment essentially. One may be say in a tight corridor and you can only face one side forward. But, that stance could also be applied in environments that could still allow for more central facing. Options ! Again, with minor modifacations it is one of out boxing guards/stances.

Here is a nice short video on different boxing guards and styles. I like this kids videos. The ones I have seen anyway. I have looked at maybe half a dozen or so through the years. He is doing go work to educate people about boxing regardless if they do it or not. I think a good thing to at least become familiar with what else is out there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6DP6ZMo5i8