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Kind of an aside to the "Sparring without Instructor" thread.
I find that when I spar with medium or heavier contact, I frequently get injured. Right now I'm nearly recovered from a frustrating month with a badly bruised rib.
Light sparring is fun and fine, and what I usually do, but lacks the feel of "reality."
For those of you who spar hard on a regular basis, what do you do to avoid injuries?
I guess you got to assess what your most common injuries are and work on ways to avoid them. My most common problems are bone bruises to my shins and pulled muscles during clinching/throwing.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaolinDan
The past couple years I have focused more on my shin conditioning, which has really helped, along with being better about wearing decent shin pads...another problem with that is I often spar much larger men, with much bigger legs. I have to be a lot more careful picking my shots with them, to not have my kicks checked or hit shin to shin.
The pulled muscles usually aren't a problem if I do a solid 10 minutes of stretching, instead of just a few quick half-hearted stretches before jumping in the ring. I know that's on me when it happens.
For worse injuries, (like your ribs,) you really got to let that heal. Seems like every time I spar hard with an injury it gets hit again...then it takes way to long to heal. I did that last year with my hip blade, I got kneed and it bruised pretty good, the next week I was sparring a bigger guy and took a real solid punch in the exact same spot, (weird situation.) It took a solid month before I could spar; and I was gun shy about that hip for quite a while after...
I used to use Kendo equipment to train full contact. The only problem is since it doesn't hurt, you may get lazy to block any body punch.
http://imageshack.us/a/img545/4410/gd98.png
I also use my bullet-proof vest (my birthday gift) for full contact on the body too.
Your worried about one of those "internal only" guys doing you in, aren't you...:cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by YouKnowWho
If you spar with any reasonable amount of force on a consistent basis, you're going to get injuries. If you continue to spar without properly resting and healing these injuries, like most of us, these injuries will become exacerbated. Exacerbated injuries will exponentionally increase the frequency and duration of which you are unable to spar. Eventually, these injuries will be beyond repair and you will no longer be able to spar. Thus, proper sparring leads to not sparring.
I whole heartedly agree with this statement. In fact, I agree with everything you said SKM. In our system we say fight to your opponents ability. And, if it's a real fight, then fight until there's no fight left in your opponent. This does not mean kill, it just means you are obligated to stop beating them up when they stop attacking you.Quote:
When sparring a younger practitioner for the sake of training, always spar the student at their own level of ability or just slightly more, so as to evoke learning and progress from them. Never beat on younger students and do not allow advanced students to beat on them either.When fighting someone with less training, fight just slightly above their level so as to fine tune and control the level of engagement, at the same time assisting the other person in upgrading their art.
ShaolinDan, If you have sparring partners who do not live by this, but instead are there to feed their own egos then I'd suggest moving on. If a student is regularly showing their psycho nature and hurting people on purpose then the instructor or his best student…whoever wears the black hat…should run them out of the school. Violently if needed.
Miyamoto Musashi said in the Book of Five Rings that an injury sustained in martial training should be considered as equal to an injury sustained in battle. I believe he was making the point that martial training is combat training which is serious war training. People should respect this concept because what they are learning can do serious damage to people so it should not be taken lightly.
You won't believe what kind of birthday gift that I have received every year. Besides bullet-proof vest, I also received stun gun, pepper spray, Star War sword, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon sword, Walther PPK, ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette
http://images.search.yahoo.com/image...nsw&hspart=avg
That's what concerns me.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterKiller
I've read about your (and other's) long-term injuries on here, and taken it to heart. The challenge seems to be finding the balance between training hard enough and often enough to fight well, verses preventing chronic injuries that inhibit one's ability to fight. For my goals I'd prefer to err on the side of too little hard contact...but I'd like to have as much as I can without crossing that line. Tricky problem with a lot of luck and random chance mixed in. Appreciate reading everyone's thoughts.
Well, the last couple injuries were not from guys in my school. One (a badly jammed finger...nothing debilitating, but still annoying) was a kung fu teacher from another school who stopped by for a friendly exchange...he was much more experienced and much better than me. I have no idea how/when I hurt my finger, I was too busy getting punched in the face to notice when it happened. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenBrain
The latest (the ribs) was at this very cool open sparring exchange that's been organized in my area. Guy who got me (roundhouse kick to the ribs) was an MMA type. Probably ten years younger and thirty pounds heavier than me...
The sparring exchange is a little dangerous, we're all taking a chance sparring with people we don't really know...but how can I pass up an opportunity to spar with a dozen different people from a half dozen styles in one afternoon? The simple solution would be to avoid the young men as they have too much to prove...but if I can't hang with them, then what's the point? :o
Anyway, there was nothing psycho about either of these guys. They were just larger and more aggressive than I am. I have a light frame with small bones, which is problematic for hand to hand combat (probably good for sword fighting though ;) ).
Good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenBrain
Another thing we need to consider is that, until fairly recent history and modern medicine, many injuries we think of as non-life-threatening, or fairly minor, could easily have resulted in disability or death, from infection, etc., far more easily than today. In Musashi's time, MA training was not taken up as a pastime. But hard combative training was and still always carries a risk, though.
Can't she just get you a nice package of noodles?Quote:
Originally Posted by YouKnowWho
:)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaolinDan
Ahh, good times! :D I see what you're saying and it doesn't seem like you're in a place full of egoists. It's hard not to be more competitive in the type of sparring exchanges you described above so there's bound to be injuries. I would definitely view those injuries as accidents. So, with that said, all you can do is work on that iron shirt my friend! ;)
I jammed three of my fingers so bad one time by down blocking a kick with my fingers pointed down (dumb). They were bruised from the knuckles to the fingertips. OUCH!
Someone I know just had a friend die from a broken ankle. Apparently they didn't give her any blood thinners to prevent clots. Scary stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenBrain
More iron body (and hands and shins) conditioning (I've been pretty lax lately) was one of my thoughts. I'm sure it would help, but with such a light frame, I'm not sure how far it will take me. I guess there's only one way to find out. :o
You can do it homie! If you don't mind me asking what is your weight/height?Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaolinDan
I'm not trying to be c0cky here but I'm 5'10" and weigh 155-160 at my tournament weight. I walk around at about 165 - 170 lbs. I can totally work dudes twice my size and I credit my kung-fu and iron body training for that. Of course, 30 years of study/experience in something like 15 or more styles and good genetics help. I love when my pro MMA buddies say "you learned that in kung-fu?" Bwaaaahahahahahahaha!!! It's like the MMA crowd has forgotten where fighting arts originated from. :rolleyes:
I'm not sure what conditioning you have but if you put in the time with iron body it will definitely pay you dividends. If you are small and fast then use that to your advantage. Kinetic energy (speed) equals power! And, if you harden your body in a safe and correct way you will be able to absorb or deflect stuff that knocks the average citizen out. Again, I'm not trying to brag but rather serve as an example.
I would also suggest this. When you fight more experienced fighters, especially talented sifu's and the pro's, then observe what favorite techniques they use. Everybody has their own flavor and favorite techniques so pay attention to what works for them. If they use them effectively against you then it's something that works against others. Take the few favorites from all the masters you work with and you can almost create a style from that alone. Once you see what works for them then incorporate that into your personal inventory of skills and you will see yourself improving exponentially. Since you are smaller and probably faster then work the center line off of 45 degree angles from the outside-in and straight blast your opponents each time you regain that center line. Train to be an inside fighter since your are small. Don't use long range techniques with guys that have longer reach. Jump inside and work their aZZ. Sweep and throw often to discourage your opponent, wear them out, and cause damage at the same time. The more they are thrown down and get up the more tired they will be and when you see them huffing wind jump in and capitalize.
I could go on and on, but you get the idea. Best of luck and remember, preserve yourself through effective defense (which can also be offense;)), be patient, smile and capitalize on whatever opening you can create. Don't listen to those who say you need a mean face. Smiling is iron head! It is also disconcerting to your opponent. It might piZZ them off but that can also be to your advantage. Smiling elevates stress, helps you mind to work better and hardens the muscles around your jaw and temple.
wearing good gear and not having a mental patient as your partner :)
Conditioning is key to preventing injury.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaolinDan
Not that it's a panacea, but it helps a lot to condition your body to be struck via various methods.
Sparring is almost never going to be a scenario where injuries do not occur.
The important thing is to not spar with ego. Because that turns into a quick pile of shyte an detracts from learning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaolinDan
Do you do any grappling? You will suffer less injuries if you include grappling sparring into your training.
@GoldenBrain: Thanks man, good tips. I'm 5'8", between 135-140lbs...before starting kung fu and getting mabu thighs, I weighed 125 lbs for years. BTW I do smile a lot when sparring, it's a game after all. :)
@SavvySavage: I usually spar with both striking and grappling...I find this can be problematic though, as striking is usually done with reduced power and grappling is not...can be misleading and also difficult for people to keep adjusting their force output.
@everyone: Thanks. Seems like iron body conditioning is a must...but that's going to take some time to make a difference, so any other suggestions to keep going in the meantime are appreciated.
I know there's been a thread on sparring gear before...When I spar I usually just wear cup, mouthguard, light shin pads and mma gloves (or nothing for light sparring). Sometimes I will wear boxing gloves for heavier hitting. Any thoughts on chest guards? Would have saved my ribs this last time, but I hate the lack of mobility. I also want to know when I get hit.
thus, practise your forms more.....Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterKiller
Not fer nuthin but I've had more injuries from grappling than sparring.Quote:
Originally Posted by SavvySavage
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaolinDan
You're not that small at 5'8", but you are light and probably quick so use that to your advantage. Dance around, wait for the openings and capitalize. I use hard blocking like elbows to top of feet and ankles when people kick to high towards my mid section. It's easy to just drop an elbow and check that kick. In friendly sparring I don't block low kicks with my knees very often, so as to keep from causing the kind of injury that what we just saw in the UFC but that is always on the table for those who are trying to hurt you. I will sometimes put my knee pads on just to work on that, but normally I just try to block kicks with kicks or soak them up on my shins. I also strike at points on the arms as people throw punches. The top of the forearm at the top of the radius and the inside of the wrist at the bottom of the radius as well as the inside of the biceps at the brachial are favorite targets. This usually slows down my opponents and gives them pause for thought before throwing the next strike.
I think you'll be surprised at how fast you'll see results from iron body training. I'd say if you're consistent you'll start seeing results within just a few weeks. And, from there it just gets better and better. Iron hand conditioning is the same. I found my striking was much harder, to the point that I had to pull back more of my power, after only a few weeks of the conditioning. I'm sure you've seen warnings from other members on this forum about doing this kind of conditioning incorrectly so keep that in mind.
I only use a custom fitted by a dentist mouth guard, various types of gloves and the nicest cup/compression shorts combo I could find. I used to wear light weight shin guards but now my shins are like diamonds so I haven't bothered with that in years. We wear mat shoes so only the bare footed students have to wear foot pads. This is really only to protect our feet. We don't have that many injuries in our school other than bruises and nose bleeds because we absolutely live by the motto of fight to the lesser opponents ability. Sometimes though, as careful as we are there are some rude injuries, but that's mostly on the higher level belt test. I do bang it out with some of my MMA buddies but I don't think I'd recommend anybody roll with the heavy hitters like that outside of their school until they have reached a high level of skill or hit a plateau in their own school. It's great experience to spar with people outside of your school but if you are still being challenged by your teacher or others of higher rank then what's the point. Stay in the relatively safe environment that you know.
i think if you wear the taekwondo ones then your mobility will be ****Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaolinDan
maybe something like this would be better:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RDX-Advanc...item2ec9b3b899
i've only used a cheap 60rmb chest protector before, it had good mobility and you could still feel the hits it just took the edge off really :p and at least i never broke a rib :eek:
edit: well, the one i posted is apprently a TKD one too, only looked at the pic haha looks lighter than others though
I think I would wait until fully recovered before doing any more sparring. I think most people use head and hand gear to sort of reduce injuries, but you will not likely escape that all together. I used to watch a small group from my apt window as they trained in a small back patio. They never sparred at all, but did a great number of forms. They would make up forms and practice them. One day I asked one of the students if they sparred and he said no, because sooner or later someone would be injured. This is why they did lots of forms and make believe fighting. They could get serious without injuring anyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaolinDan
And when I was a young man I asked about it to my father, and he told me that same thing. Kung fu has to be used with intent. You have to apply it like you mean it or it is pretty much useless. And if you are doing it with a partner you stand a good chance of injury as well as your partner. I really don't think you are going to get too far away from injury if you continue to spar. Just gots to be real careful and hope your partner is.
Thanks Lee. Nice to see you posting again. After that long hiatus I was afraid you weren't with us anymore...Hope you're holding up OK now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po
I understand it's not possible to spar (or train, or play any sport at all) without injury...just looking for ways to reduce the frequency of injury. Speaking of which, I'm embarrassed to say it, but yesterday I jammed three fingers on my right hand trying to catch a kick.:( Not even sparring, just a defense drill. Just when my ribs were almost better. I guess there's no cure for being an uncoordinated putz. :D Pretty swollen today, but they look straight.
As far as not sparring or doing partner work to avoid injury... Well, I actually have no problem with people training that way, but it's not for me (not this decade anyway). While I agree that sparring has a different mind set than real combat, sparring seems to be the only way to test/develop my ability to apply what I practice...short of becoming a mob street enforcer ;) ... which I imagine has its own risks and injuries. :p
Good topic.
First, ask ourself and have a clear understanding of what you are going to do. That is what is the goal of sparring? What the rules are?
Second, is there sufficient prevention of injury, like wearing protection gears?
Third, besides the skills of sparring, is the ethics of the students good enough?
Lastly, I would like to refer to an opinion on sparring from Bruce Lee - do not take part in such training too often, one or two sessions per week will be top. It coincides with the point made by another forum member in his post. The logic lies in the Law of Average. The more we spar, the more injury will likely be accumulated by us. So give our mind and body some rest. Take care!
Regards,
KC
Hong Kong
1 safety rules.
2 use protective gears
3 a third person to intervene or ref
4 common sense
--
I hate to use gloves. However, they prevent scratching from nails.
If point sparring, touch or dab with powder or color paint instead of a heavy strike.
If throw, you are on the ground, you lose.
etc etc
I favor drilling a lot with people; if in moderate sparring someone works something on me enough, then I drill defenses to this with them so that I can work the defense against the attack as it works, and they improve that tech in kind, thus making me improve the defense. Then, they are also drilled on my defense and come up with responses. From the drills, we sort of inoculate each other to each others' responses so that the overall sparring is safer(relatively speaking). Especially because we become intimately familiar with the repercussions of not shutting down tech x, so we recognize failure instead of being unaware of it until hard sparring.
If I'm sparring hard with someone whose responses I'm unfamiliar with and who is unfamiliar with mine, I'm asking to be hurt or to hurt them. If, however, we spar at a moderate pace and drill what we learn from this, we improve a lot more, imo.
To learn from hard sparring is important, but to learn from it what can be learned from more moderate sparring and drills is not very smart. Hard sparring is for learning the lessons that only apply at that level. Sparring hard without drills and shadowboxing extensively first is a waste of time. People stick with their strongest points and don't learn their weaknesses then. They depend on the other person being shut down by a limited repertoire rather than using the practice to expand their ideas, imo.
If someone works something on me in sparring, and I don't take the opportunity to figure out good counters and drill them with the person who makes the move work, then what am I training for?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faux Newbie
***APPLAUSE***
This is a great method that I totally agree with. Good stuff there Faux Newbie!
Yes. Excellent post there, FN.
It's clearly what Tom Cruise used to save the samurai.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaolinDan
When I'm injured, at my age, I play it safe. I spend my training time maintaining my strengths, and working new techniques in through things like shadowboxing, heavy bag work (where it doesn't aggravate the injury), etc. I do footwork, left, right, back, forward, diagonal, and incorporate the new techniques I'm trying to make second nature from each step in each direction, and work it in shadow boxing, making sure the shadow boxing makes sense, where I'm doing in close moves when the footwork would have brought me in close or when my assumption is the opponent moved in, training doing my moves for a reason, not trying to show off the form for each move, doing this light. Then, when I'm healed, I'm a different fighter, and I can get in and see where my ideas were on, where they were off, and how my training partners adapt and force me to adapt again.
Sometimes investing in loss has made me a much better martial artist. When one can't spar, one can drill what one was putting off drilling, anyway.
Also, beer.
Let me use an example of mine on the point of student's ethics in sparring. Two months ago, I did not attack much when I sparred with a classmate. In fact, there was not much engagement. I did not know exactly why at the time. But I knew why on the next day - the classmate does not mind hurting the other side to the degree that I regards as unnecessary for good training purpose. Yep, that was what I felt. This coincides with the theory that fighting is very much done by sensation. I felt he was attacking too strong. Sure, I did not think that he would inflict serious injury on the other side, but that does not mean it is alright. He was not wearing gloves, not any protection gear at all. And he struck at the same spot on his opponent more than twice in a sparring session. No wonder another classmate was hurt by him during sparring.
Regards,
KC
Hong Kong