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MMA vs. Street fighting
OK I'm sorry to make another thread on this, but I noticed something this weekend that I thought was very interesting regarding this subject, and I didn't think it really fit into any of the other threads on here...I also had been wanting to share some of my training experiences in a "no-nonsense," street oriented system a few years ago...
Many people that say MMA is so different from "real fighting" point to the fact that eye and groin attacks are prohibited by MMA rules...however, we saw both of these things happen at UFC 52, and in one case the fight wasn't even stopped, as the ref didn't see the accidental low blow...what's my point? It's that sport fighters often accidentally kick/knee eachother in the groin or poke eachother in the eyes, so I would think that if they INTENDED TO DO SO, they could do it on the street...also consider the fact that many sport fighters practice kicks to the inside of the thigh...all they have to do is kick a few inches higher to kick the guys groin...again, they sometimes do accidentally kick eachother there, so how hard could it be for them to do it intentionally?
Secondly, as I said before, I trained for about a decade in a reality-oriented martial art, under the guidance of people that had served in the armed forces and even Vietnam...I eventually left this art to pursue a more sport-oriented art, for the single goal of learning to defend myself on the street! I found that since we didn't spend too much time practicing our techniques against a resisting opponent, that I had trouble when we actually did...and that goes for the techniques we COULD practice against a resisting opponent...I can only assume that I would have had even more trouble with our "deadly" techniques, since I never could really practice those at all (more than put my hand to the guys throat)...anyway, I guess another point I am trying to make here is that let's say we have two guys fighting, one guy does not worry about sport fighting, so he practices throat attacks by putting his hand close to a guys throat, or touching it very gently...the other guy is a sport fighter, and has never hit anyone in the throat before...BUT AHA! Neither has the reality fighter! He's only simulated this movement while not really hurting his training partner! So who do you want to put your money on in a street fight, a guy that has practiced hitting the dude's throat by gently putting his hand up there, or a guy that has practiced punching someone in the chin at full speed and force, and just needs to punch a few inches lower to attack the guy's throat? Or a guy who has practice groin kicks by stopping his kick 6 inches from the guys groin, or a guy who has practiced leg kicks at full force and just needs to kick a few inches higher to attack someone's groin?
People that practice combat sports are restricted by rules, its true, but at least they can practice what they can do at full speed and force, against a resisting opponent...and it's not like people that don't compete in sports kick eachother in the groin at full blast when they train...
Having said all that, I will also say I have no street fights, so I am very open to comments and suggestions...thank you for taking the time to read this lengthy post...
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this would have been a decent post for your side of the argument like 5 years ago, but i do understand not everyones been around that long.
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Sure, a lot of what I am saying has been said many times before...however, one point I was trying to make that I hadn't heard before was:
Take the attacks that most people use as examples when talking about how "unrealistic" combat sports are...I have seen these "illegal" techniques occur more frequently in the ring or cage than I have in actual street fights I have witnessed or seen video clips of...
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Didn't they actually puit an MMA guy in Streetfighter or am I thinking Tekken? I know what's his name, the gigantic black dude whose name starts with M is in Tekken but I thought there was an MMA guy in Streetfighter now?
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So you're saying that a sport fighter would be more effective on the street than someone who has trained in deadly techniques. Your reasoning is, the sport fighter would be more effective because they practice full contact where the person who trains in deadly techniques can't actually practice those techniques.
All of these hypothetical situations about what is more effective on the street are really getting old. Why are people so obsessed with with what or what isn't effective on the street?
Let's say I get in a "Street Fight" with some MMA dude and this guy beats the tar out of me and leaves me on the street. A few minutes later I stumble to my car, drive around the block, see the MMA dude and run him down. Who won the fight? My point is, you can't say this or that will be more effective on the street because there are too many variables.
Now if the MMA dude and I square off in a ring and fight and he wins. Then there is no question. The rules of fighting in the ring level the playing field and make it a fair fight.
To me fighting and winning in the ring is more impressive than street fighting because the variables are eliminated.
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There was a book on fencing written in the 1700's called 'secrets of the sword' that presented this discussion as a series of drawing room discussions.
Here is the rub:
Without free-fighting, you can practice moves that are too dangerous to use freely on training partners.
With free-fighting you develop the actual 'body-knowledge' of how to use your system.
If you train to exclusively win in free-fighting, you start to develop technique that 'scores' rather than being purely decisive in a fight. This builds bad habits.
Without it, you may find yourself why your moves didn't work.
In my day San Da/San shou rules were about the most open. To supplement this I continued to randori with Judo players, even though I'd left Judo for Shuai Chiao. (there are just more people doing Judo, so you get more variety)
Todays MMA rules are good rules. They are definitely for the young (I think I pulled a muscle in my man-tit Sunday), but they are not so restrictive that you can't see the dangerous stuff.
In China, whenever someone wanted to sound bad-@ss, they would say, 'oh we beat some shuai-chiao guys'. The reason, is that shuai-chiao has always involved free-fighting of a sort, so the players develop shuai-fa - the body skill to actually defeat a skilled, resisting opponent.
The danger with sporting is you can LOSE all the good stuff for the sake of sport. Just like what happened to fencing. But I don't think fisticuffs/wrestling/small weapons work is as likely to go out of style as carrying a big sword...
A while back I taught a class on clinch work to a guy Carlos Gracie calls 'unbeatable' - he's a really good, scary guy - a little green, but I don't want to fight him. After a little mat time with him, I can garentee that in many instances in the street he is MORE dangerous because of his MMA experience.
Can you learn good skills without a lot of free-fighting? I think so. Will you be as prepared as if you did some sport fighting? No. If all you do is practice for sport will you be truly prepared? No.
It's all about understanding your goals, and testing your results, without getting off your ai priori assumptions.
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Originally Posted by Akhilleus
Many people that say MMA is so different from "real fighting" point to the fact that eye and groin attacks are prohibited by MMA rules...however, we saw both of these things happen at UFC 52, and in one case the fight wasn't even stopped, as the ref didn't see the accidental low blow...what's my point? It's that sport fighters often accidentally kick/knee eachother in the groin or poke eachother in the eyes, so I would think that if they INTENDED TO DO SO, they could do it on the street...also consider the fact that many sport fighters practice kicks to the inside of the thigh...all they have to do is kick a few inches higher to kick the guys groin...again, they sometimes do accidentally kick eachother there, so how hard could it be for them to do it intentionally?
the inside of the thigh is a favorite target of mine, as I've got a quick lead roundhouse.
Anyhoo, I've posted this before, but I asked royce about the eye gouge thing. he told me that in the early UFC, eye and groin strikes were allowable. BUT, if they were done, the fighter would get fined... he would still win the match though, if his opponent couldn't continue because of it.
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"The street" consists of everyone here plus everyone else .... it's everybody.
Some of those guys are MMAists that train stand up striking, kicking, clinching and ground pounding and locking .... on top of that, to fight someone regularly with those little gloves makes ya kind of comfortable or at least familiar with this kind of violence.
If I had a choice, I'd rather fight the other "street fighters" who aren't trained like this. They might be tough, but everyone has a line that when crossed, they get real tough too.
Street fighting is dangerous. I'm guessing it's more dangerous when the other guy is skilled on top of no rules/weapons/etc.
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I think an average mma fighter would fair a better chance then an average tckf guy. imo.
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Quotes from Chief Fox:
"So you're saying that a sport fighter would be more effective on the street than someone who has trained in deadly techniques. Your reasoning is, the sport fighter would be more effective because they practice full contact where the person who trains in deadly techniques can't actually practice those techniques."
Yeah, that was one way in which I looked at this debate...but I myself haven't really made up my mind...like I said I don't have any streetfighting experience...
"All of these hypothetical situations about what is more effective on the street are really getting old. Why are people so obsessed with with what or what isn't effective on the street?"
True they are getting very old...I'm sorry I started another thread on this done-to-death topic, but hey! Look at all the great joke-threads I, and others, helped inspire! :rolleyes:
Anyway thanks for the replies guys...I guess in retrospect this isn't terribly important to me, as I don't plan on getting into any fights any time soon...
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If I want to train throat grabs full-speed in a free-sparring situation, I train throat grabs, full speed and with as much pressure as is safe.
If I want to train throat strikes full-speed in a free-sparring situation, I can't but I can train strikes, full-speed to the face.
Or I can train a little slower than full-speed, stopping the strike/grab at the throat. If I can pull this off in a full-speed free-sparring situation (when it isn't full-speed, against somebody who is), I don't see why I couldn't pull it off in the street.
Since I want the opportunity to be able to train both ways, I can find both kinds of teachers, or I can get together with classmates and go at it.
Don't see a problem. The guy I put my money on is the guy who has the most training in one or more of these relatively realistic set-ups. If it's one or the other, could be either... and will of course (as threads from a couple of years ago worked out) be down to many many different factors, not only training. Sorry, it's boring but true, no?! :)
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OK so it sounds like everything I have said here as already been said years before...which is surprising since UFC 52 occured last weekend and I used that event to support one side of the argument...anyway like I said I myself am not overly concerned with this whole debate, I only posted my 2 cents b/c there were people debating this, and I thought I had some new evidence to bring to the table...in other words, if what I am saying is so old, I'll be glad to stop, as I was only posting it in hopes of giving others some new insight...
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What MS2 said, but let me simplify it further.
We all train with rules. The argument always seems to be about which set of rules for training is better.
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Originally Posted by Merryprankster
What MS2 said, but let me simplify it further.
We all train with rules. The argument always seems to be about which set of rules for training is better.
and how restrictive those rules can be.
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And Akhilleus (no offense) is applying rules to street fighting as if it would only be one on one with both people unarmed. Physically in any fight the better trained, better conditioned fighter will win as long as it stays in the narrow confines of one on one. But **** happens and the other guy may pull a gun ( as with Alex Gong) or a knife (which you may or may not see) or have a friend with a brick ready to smash your head. We all end up dealing with the same issues no matter what arts we practice.
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Yes Mr. Rogue, may I call you Mr. Rogue? You are absolutely correct...And I would guess that in real life, it rarely is a "fair" one-on-one fight...
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Just call me A-holio, everybody else does.
I do think sport arts give more all around benefits than so-called Reality Based systems do. Since most self defense happens between the ears it should be easy for any sport fighter to convert over. I think the crew at SBG are following this method.
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Originally Posted by rogue
Just call me A-holio, everybody else does.
I do think sport arts give more all around benefits than so-called Reality Based systems do. Since most self defense happens between the ears it should be easy for any sport fighter to convert over. I think the crew at SBG are following this method.
I think you can have a successful Reality based training program, as long as you understand the actual realities involved in self defense. Beyond that necessary mental training, some hard sparring and setting up situations that require you react as closely and as realistically as possible.
Unfortunatley in my experience most "Reality" based training programs are put on by dweebs looking to make a buck of sukkaz, or some idiot who thinks he knows best and doesn't.
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Here are some videos of street fights. Watch the interview and then the attack. Nothing fancy.
http://www.personalprotectionsystems.ca/multimedia.htm
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Thanks for the link...I'll watch all of them eventually...so far, the prison guard attack looks a lot like something you would see in UFC...and the guard appears to take an incredible amount of punishment and walk away...
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Akhilleus: your avatar brightens my day.
-Will
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There are holes in everyones training. No one is excluded. Many traditionalists overlook the simplicity of combat (such as many fights go to the ground for instance). Many mixed martial artists overlook attacks because they train around specific rules (elbow to the back of the neck when someone is grabbing your leg for instance).
But each party knows what is there and what they are doing. They can also realize that there are these holes, and in the very least, mentally prepare for these situations.
This does not mean that on our personal time or in other training senarios that we do not train in these holes. This goes for everyone who really wants to be a good combatant in the game of life.
Many mixed martial artists, if faced with real life senario would put the elbow to the spine, simply because it is the best thing to do in that specific situation.
Many traditionalists will resort to the simple, more economic techniques, if faced with a real life senario, simply because it is the best thing to do in that specific situation.
Point is everyone (regardless of what art they practice) is capable of filling in the gaps, it just takes the notice of holes and the desire to fill them.
In summary: Neither MMA or TMA would fair best in this situation. The better fighter would. We can make assumptions based on averages, but this will only lead to unrealistic conclusions about an art as a whole, which is entirely unfair to the art itself. The art is nothing, it is completely empty and void. There is no substance. It is only given life through emotion, action, and desire. This is what makes the difference.
When it comes down to it I would put my money on the Military Special forces over pretty much any MMA or TMA.
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Akhilleus: your avatar brightens my day
Thanks Will I am glad you like it...that movie was on the other day and I had forgotten how great it was, since I hadn't seen it in about a decade...sadly the series went seriously downhill after the first one, but don't they always? If I can figure out how to change forum name I wanted to make it Atreyu...
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Originally posted by Chief Fox...
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Let's say I get in a "Street Fight" with some MMA dude and this guy beats the tar out of me and leaves me on the street. A few minutes later I stumble to my car, drive around the block, see the MMA dude and run him down. Who won the fight? My point is, you can't say this or that will be more effective on the street because there are too many variables.
Dang that was really good stuff you said there...you just made a fact...that's what I am going to tell people next time they ask me "can this be used on the street?"...don't worry, I will cite you, Chief Fox...
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Originally Posted by Akhilleus
Thanks Will I am glad you like it...that movie was on the other day and I had forgotten how great it was, since I hadn't seen it in about a decade...sadly the series went seriously downhill after the first one, but don't they always? If I can figure out how to change forum name I wanted to make it Atreyu...
yeah, that movie was great. I dunno why they bothered with sequels and a frickin cartoon though...
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Originally Posted by red5angel
Didn't they actually puit an MMA guy in Streetfighter or am I thinking Tekken? I know what's his name, the gigantic black dude whose name starts with M is in Tekken but I thought there was an MMA guy in Streetfighter now?
That's Craig Marduck .
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With that spandex he could double as Richard Simmons man b!tch.
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sheeeeit, if that guy were real he'd make Mike Tyson look like a Richard Simmons wanna be.
From now on my martial arts goal is to look like a gigantic black man who can fight mean enough to get away with wearing grappling shorts.
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"yeah, that movie was great. I dunno why they bothered with sequels and a frickin cartoon though..."
Yeah, it wasn't really the type of movie you could make good sequels of easily, especially when you can't get the same actors back, or even people that look like the originial actors...the show ticks me off...everytime I put on HBO Family its like the neverending story is next so I get all pumped...then I see its only 30 min long and has some stupid subplot with characters that were not even in the original movie...
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What movie, and what actress is that?
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Originally Posted by SevenStar
yeah, that movie was great. I dunno why they bothered with sequels and a frickin cartoon though...
Well, the first movie was only the first half of the book it was based on.
Mind you, I don't know if the second movie had anything to do with the second half of the book, 'cos I didn't see it.
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What movie, and what actress is that?
HOW DARE YOU SIR?! That is no actRESS! It's Noah Hathaway, the man that immortalized the role of Atreyu in the Neverending Story part I. I understand the Avatar pics are small and not very clear, but do not let him hear you call him an actress! He killed this wolf-dude with a rock...
EDIT: shoot did I just get trolled :o
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Well, the first movie was only the first half of the book it was based on.
Really I will have to read the book, though I heard the author wasn't particularly happy with the film...as for the second movie, unless the book had Jonathan Brandis running around BEATING ATREYU in a fist fight and then making a bunch of wishes, and an annoying big-bird wannabee, it wasn't true to the book...and the third movie...I watched like 5 minutes of it...somehow they could afford Jason James Richter of Free Willy Fame and Jack Black but then they were doing that garbage where you have little cartoon objects in front of the real movie instead of CGI or puppets or something...
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Originally Posted by rogue
What movie, and what actress is that?
LOL.........
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HOW DARE YOU SIR?! That is no actRESS! It's Noah Hathaway, the man that immortalized the role of Atreyu in the Neverending Story part I. I understand the Avatar pics are small and not very clear, but do not let him hear you call him an actress! He killed this wolf-dude with a rock...
I thought it was Carly Simon.
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MMA used in a street fight
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sorry
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uh....more like jr high wrestling.
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its better than what i have seen on video when it comes to street fights.
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The one kid was very slow and obviously has no training at all. The other kid has at least seen some MMA videos and knew about take downs and the mount.
It was pretty entertaining first thing Friday morning.
I'm going to give it 3 out of a possible 5 blood stains.