Does any one know of a way to make Jow without using liquor?
Phil
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Does any one know of a way to make Jow without using liquor?
Phil
Hmm, alcohol seems best suited to extract the oils form the herbs that go into the jow. Also, when using the jow, alcohol will evaporate which also has a cooling effect. I've heard of some people using vinegar instead, but personally I prefer to stay save and use what they have been using for ages =)
There are a variety of ways to make jow, and are several ways of preparing herbs in general.
The 3 primary bases in dit da jow are alcohol, water, and oil with alcohol being by far the most popular. There are vinegar based recipes out there, but also, some single herbs are prepared in (or with) vinegar.
Alcohol based dit da jow has warming properties, and is absorbed quickly. Dit da jow actaully means hit fall WINE, whereas, if you want to be picky, oil based liniments arent dit da jow at all...they are dit da YAO.
Oil based dit da "yao" absorbs more slowly, and you can control this speed by what type of carrier oil is used. It usually uses a combination of oil extracts instead of whole herbs and so it is a bit easier to control the potency of the mixture and it also doesnt require the aging period. For these reasons it is more favorable for those who dont want to wait, or for amssage purposes (because you can dilute the mixture for whole-body use, plus it offers good lubrication).
Water based liniments are not commonly used, because although water is an extremely good solvent, it doesnt have the moving properties, or the penetration power of alcohol or oil.
It is also important to note that practically *every* dit da on the market uses a combination alcohol/water base for solvency issues and because most people have to use Vodka, which is 40% alcohol, 60% water--Although, I buy pharmaceutical grade ethanol as 95% pure alcohol that doesnt have all the flavoring crap in it that Vodka does, and mix it with pure water to make a mixture that is near the proportions above.
Alcohol does NOT have a cooling effect, it just *feels* cool as it evaporates. Alcohol is an invigorator, and is classified as having a hot energy and sweet and bitter flavor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmo
Thank you PlumDragon. I make my own Jow. When I was in NYC I used to by Saam Jing Jow (Thrice distilled wine), "under the counter" in Chinatown. Now I use Vodka. I've had students that didn't want to use Jow make with loquor for religious reasons. That's why I asked. My Cantonese is pretty fair and Tit/Dit Da Jow is Iron Hit Wine. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by PlumDragon
Phil
Sorry, double-post.
Youre quite welcome! =)Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Redmond
Well oil-based jow is the way to go then, IMO. Its easy to make, but somewhat difficult to find. Im considering releasing an oil-based liniment in the future but I see little demand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Redmond
There is debate over this, and really, it doesnt much matter either way--The reason I brought it up was to make a differentiation between the name of alcohol based liniments (jow, jiu, jau, etc) and oil based liniments (yao, yau, etc). As for spellings, "dit da jau" in Cantonese, and "die da jiu" Mandarin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Redmond
EDIT: I believe tie3 is iron, and die1 is to fall.
Since I don't know about oil based Jow I'd be interested in buying some from you for my students that would prefer oil based Jow. Let me know if you decide to make some.
Phil
I understood that alcohol being applied externally is cooling due to the vaporation, but internally has the warming/hot effect? (one of those cases where different application determines the properties) Will have to look back where I got this from though, crappy memory ...
No; the substance is irrelevant in the phenomenon you are talking about. The same thing happens with water for example, and is due to the fact that molecules with more energetic nature (ie, more heat) have a higher probability of vaporizing and when they leave the surface of the skin they take the heat with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmo
Sifu makes a commercial product that is oil based, peppermint oil is the main ingredient. www.kungfuoil.com
He says the oil based preperation is a premium recipe. I just use it, but don't get it near your eyes or other tender places...
The oils are also good for burns, mosquito bites, or irritations. Some people are allergic to it though, so you have to be careful.
FWIW
Right on folks, it's good to see this discussion on board again sans hecklers or trolls.
PlumDragon - as always, I enjoy your concise but thorough treatment of the subject. I do have one question for you, though. How is your high grade ETOH produced? While in theory I absolutely agree with your reasoning, in practicality, I generally try to err in the direction of nature. Just as some extracted and concentrated (or synthetic) products may not be as effective (taking side effects into consideration) as their original counterpart, I feel an alcohol base distilled from grain may have side-products that unwittingly have beneficial side effects. Maybe there's some sort of phenol or something that will assist in penetration or adds to the lubricity of the base. You don't want it do evaporate too quickly, as the massage that it the application accompanies is as important as the jow. (I'm not trying to convince you to change your formula, though!:p )
Yum Cha - I know some oils are very good for application over cuts and burns, but it seems like maybe unsterilized/uncooked oil preparations might harbor bacteria. Also, my Sifu always used to adivse keeping the jow out of open wounds, but there was always controversy as to exactly why. I guess I just wonder if this applies to oils as well...
Phil - I just bought a new dit da yao that's probably available locally (though I'm not trying to detract from PlumD's future formulations ;) ). It's called Wan Hua Oil or Die Da Wan Hua Oil. I tried it recently and it seemed to work pretty well. It's got more than just the usual menthol, it also uses some of the essentials found in many dit da formulae: hong hua (safflower), xue jie (dragon's blood resin), gu sui bu (drynaria rhizome) and several others. A net search ought to bring you some results... I really like this formula and it smells great (like kung fu colonge :D )
peace
herb ox
Thanks to all of you that have contributed to this thread. I've always wondered about making a bruise linament without alcohol. I'll be looking into to Yum Cha's, PlumD's, and Herb Ox's suggestions. And it is nice to have an intelligent and respectful thread. :D
Phil
The explanation I heard most is that jow is too low in alcohol to kill of bacteria and might've become contaminated. It also sounds most logical too me... (and then there are jows with poisnious herbs ofcourse)Quote:
Also, my Sifu always used to adivse keeping the jow out of open wounds, but there was always controversy as to exactly why.
Thanks Herb ox, your comments are much appreciated!Quote:
Originally Posted by herb ox
The ethanol I use is a pharmaceutical grade grain-ethanol made 100% naturally with grain the same way that Vodka is; Im with ya 100% on this topic and its part of my philosophy in making jow: I prefer completely natural and synergistic all the way, which is why I buy what I do. Vodka has additives in it for flavoring that arent natural, which I dont care to have in my jow; its less "pure" because of that flavoring and so I chose to spend a little more money to have a product that is devoid of flavorings and synthetic substances that are found in liquor from the liquor store.
This is NOT to say that my prodct is 100% ethanol. It is a balanced mix of "hydrous ethanol", which makes it about 45 %...
Hope that answers your questions?
The jow we use can be made with either alcohol or vinegar, but with the vinegar you have to add another herb to it and cook it to get the same effect.
Personally, I think the vinegar based jow works a little better for healing bruises, but they both do a good job.
I never considered additives in Vodka. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by PlumDragon
I'll never get too old to learn.
Thanks,
Phil
My Sifu's Iron Palm Jow has vinegar. And yes we have to cook it. I should look into that for my own Jow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge Pen
PR
You can make infused oils then add essential oils and beeswax to make a salve like this one which works very well:
http://chinesetherapeutics.org/catal...roducts_id=226
Hello,
I have a quick question, do how long is it recommeded to apply Dit Da Jow to an injury? 2-3X daily, but for how long?
Is there a limit or maximum?
Thanks~
I have found it best to soak a cotton ball with the Dit da jow. Put the cotton ball at the point of injury, cover with clear plastic wrap and then cover with an ace bandage to hold everything in place.
The reason why this works is that it allows the pores to open and the medicine
work on the area. I would only do this for an hour or two at a time maybe twice
a day. Any more than that and the skin might break out into a rash.
Mike Biggie
7 Star Praying Mantis, Hong Kong Branch
Choy Li Fut, Hung Sing Branch
Yang Tai Chi
Shaolin Boxing Academy, Akron Ohio.
Thanks. I'll do that. Is it safe to do it for multiple days until injury is gone?
Thanks
Ban Hou,
You could do this twice a day as Mike suggested. You might get a rash from your medicine but its only the skin being irritated by the herbs in the formula.
Be well,
Dale
Thanks for your reply. And yes, I noticed a slight rash but I washed it with herbal soap and it went away.
Thanks again!
What kind of injury do you have?
It was on my ankle.
besides the jow, healing the injury is in the massage-tui-na or ahn -moor. When we "rub out" a bruise,sprain, etc, it takes quite some time. We first lightly massage with soaked warm jow in cotton ball-for about five minutes. Then the hard stuff starts-YEOWWWCH!! for a bruise, usually circular,sprains follow the direction of the tendon. this is for quite some time depending on degree of swelling, coloration, etc. Then light stroaking and slapping to bring in fresh blood. Finally covered with soaked gauze of cottonball and wrapped.
I would not wrap with plastic. Soak it in Jow, massage it in.
Have you seen a doctor?
Thanks a lot, TenTigers - extremely helpful.
RoyalDragon, no, I didn't yet go to the doctor. Thanks!!
Thank you all.
You might want to go have it looked at, in case it's something Jow alone can't fix. If you have a soft tissue injury, you may need to have it imobilised for a bit for it to heal quick.
I am a firm believer in the Chinese methods, but sometimes an exray is the best diagnostic method there is. You can gravitate towards Chinese herbal methods after you know for sure what is wrong.
Even in China, they use western methods where they work better, and thier own when it is superior.
Once you know what is wrong, Master Troy has a really good jow...if you can talk him into shareing. I'd give you some of mine, but I don't have any made up right now.
Also, if it is causeing a rash, you are useing too much, or you need a different formula for your Jow. Or it may have been made with a very strong alcohol. A slow simmer on the stove is what is needed to remove the alcohal so you can put it on your skin without rashes.
Okay, great. Thanks a lot. I was planning to go to get my neck Xrayed as well. My ankle is much better, now. But I think the neck needs to be done.
If you ever get any made up i'd really like to try yours, if possible. I'd pay for the materials, etc.
Thanks a lot!
What is wrong with your neck? Same pain as before? or an injury that is new?
Yes, same injury. From my previous... experience.
How is the injury doing?
I was going to come by class yesterday, but I was too bogged down with work to do so.
Hopefully things are beter now.
A little better now, thanks!
I hope to see you in class, soon!
Thanks
Good, Glad to hear it!! :)
I have some experience with neck & cranial injury. If U can state in details.. I maybe of help.
Cheers
It's just a chronic pain on my left side and when I turn it to a certain extent it sends a sharp pain.
I feel like it's slowly getting better, because i've recently started practicing good kung fu - but not sure. I plan on meeting a specialist soon.
It could be a slight dislocation from an injury. I got mine from training. There was abt 1mm dislocation at the 7th vetebrate. Specialist told me I need physio & surgery. I got a good chinese ditDar & fix it back in a week. It have been 2 years. There is no repercussions.. C-T Scan has reveal my problem where X-ray had failed. I believe get a scan then search for a good DitDar.
Let me know how u going.
Regards
Dependant on the specific formula there are some dit da cho that require no cooking. Southern Mantis Cho is merely herbs soaked for a few months in vinegar.
In hakka:
da yok jiew = wine
da yok cho = vinegar
da yok yow = oil
In our tradition we use cho and jiew. They are slightly different in purpose. I also know a bak mei guy who uses cho (made with such things as a rusty bolt and scorpions!).