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Do you internal practitioners think that an external practitioner who also practiced, say, one hour of zhan zhuang (static postures for health) could get all or most of the benefits( and in the same amount) of the internal arts other than the combat aspect, i.e., health, spiritual, mental, rejuvenation, chi, etc...?
Absolutely not. Perhaps certain aspects might begin to manifest themselves for you, but real life-or-death fighting skill does not confer itself upon us by osmosis. There is still no substitute, ESPECIALLY in the Taoist internal arts, for working with and feeding off the energy of a real live training partner. Similarly, the energies of the movement of individual postures, forms, etc. do not reveal themselves without actually performing them, and learning to do so correctly. When in doubt, don't discount the simple but often quiet voice of common sense. :)
Thanks for your response, Chris, but I think you misunderstood the question. What I meant was, ASIDE from any and all combat benefits, do you think zhan zhuang confers all the benefits of the internal arts (superb health, spirituality/enlightenment, rejuvenation...
"From nothing to Wuji to Yin & Yang to the 3 treasures to 5 elements to all else"
Zhan Zhuang is "WuJi"... a beginning but not a manifestation
I would say a big YES,In the Yiquan I practise I go through several different zhan zhuang each morning (usually broken into 20 min lots)and have found them to improve my BGZ. I understand where Chris is coming from as combat application is combat application and no amount of zhan zhuang is suddenly going to make you a killer.However as a basis from which to expand from I think it is invaluable for a mulitude of reasons.Personally I have felt a greater springy resilence(best description I could think of)in sparing and a calmer (stiller?) mind while under stress( in any part of life).I really feel it is or should be a fundamental and integal part of most of the NeiJia arts.From what I see it is not emphasized nearly enough.And by the way I really dig this color writing (do ya think),good value! :D
bruce, I understood exactly what you were asking, but thanks for providing further clarification anyway. I made the point about the combat applications in order to make a parallel point regarding the Yin aspects of the neijia as well. My point is that each internal art contains both still qigongs and dynamic qigongs. The energies of each posture, movement, etc. within the dynamic ones are subtly unique, and neglecting to practice them will not allow the student to fully develop the energies inherent in each posture.
For instance, basic chan siu jing, or silk reeling energy, can be found in a variety of dynamic postures in Taijiquan and certainly in the Single Palm Change of Baguazhang. Learning to feel, coordinate, and eventually control this jing is simply not possible with zhan zhuang alone. While still qigongs actually can have a beneficial effect on one's movement and even on one's combat ability, at the end of the day they are no substitute (nor are they meant to be) for actual practice of those jings themselves.
Now, if your definition of the Yin aspects (health, etc.) does not include the ability to manifest various jings correctly, then this will not be a problem for you. However, I am using the more traditional view that each jing has both a Yang as well as a Yin aspect, and is beneficial for either. So I guess it kind of depends on what you are wanting out of it.
Anyway, best of luck.
Chris: if your refering too specific internal powers (e.g. certain types of jing etc) then yes I agree with your post.
However:
If you're refering to internal power as a whole then I tend to diagree:
Take in mind that I'm into xingyiquan (basically an external art that dabbles into the internal. So my level of expertise in all things true internal are so so.......
And if someone said I neglected the "Yin" side of my art, I would have to agree.
Here in Detroit it's pretty much an external world I live in
(i.e. I've studied in a few external schools in my day)
I've seen many external martial artist with alot of internal power.
I once got into a macho "who could take the most kicks and knees to the chest contest, with a Koei Kan Karateka of 18 yrs experience. He had (thru the Sanchin Kata) deveolped somthing akin to Iron body nei gong.
I've also felt the power of a few high level Aikidoka.
I think internal power is inherent in all styles. If one learns the "how to" of post standing/different forms of pre and post breathing/different forms of chi developments/ways of manipulation. Then one has gong in the internal department.
I think many syles do this, but in a variety of ways, through different internal expressions.
Paul Calugaru
Paul,
RE: "Chris: if your refering too specific internal powers (e.g. certain types of jing etc) then yes I agree with your post.". In which of my statements? I'm not sure what you are agreeing with exactly.
RE: "If you're refering to internal power as a whole then I tend to diagree:". Of which of my statements are you unclear as to whether I was referring to
internal power as a whole?
RE: " Take in mind that I'm into xingyiquan (basically an external art that dabbles into the internal. So my level of expertise in all things true internal are so so.......". I am familiar with Xing Yi Quan and I would suggest your fellow practitioners of that style might take issue with your description of it here. It is not an external art nor does it merely dabble in the internal. It is recognized as a fully internal art.
RE: "I've seen many external martial artist with alot of internal power. I once got into a macho "who could take the most kicks and knees to the chest contest, with a Koei Kan Karateka of 18 yrs experience. He had (thru the Sanchin Kata) deveolped somthing akin to Iron body nei gong.". That was, I'm sure, a fascinating experience but I don't see its relevance to either true internal power nor to any particular statement made in this thread. Perhaps you might clarify for me?
RE: " I think internal power is inherent in all styles. If one learns the "how to" of post standing/different forms of pre and post breathing/different forms of chi developments/ways of manipulation. Then one has gong in the internal department.". Suffice it to say the orthodox viewpoint reflects my own in strongly disagreeing with this statement. The last sentence of your statement here makes it seem as if you are not understanding what is actually being discussed in this thread. Neither I nor bruce have or would deny that performing zhan zhuang results in development of "gong in the internal department". What was asked and what is being discussed is whether practicing zhan zhuang alone would confer ALL of the benefits of the internal arts. I still hold, as per my previous points, that it does not, and that some of the benefits can only be derived by actual practice of the dynamic elements of the art, and that certain benefits further require practicing with a partner.
I sincerely hope you understand that I'm not simply trying to be contentious in this reply. For the most part, it is simply unclear as to the specific references you are making as to whether you agree or disagree with a given point.
brucelee2,
You would only get some of the benefits. Standing qigong is supposedly something that primes the internal pump. Some internal practitioners eventually give up on standing practice because they get more benefit out of their other training methods and forms. On its own, standing qigong is a wonderful thing, very beneficial to your health, and if you want ot take up its practice, I encourage you to do so, regardless of how much you will or will not get out of it. But if you truly want to delve into the internal, you must take up an internal art, as there are things there that are never going to be gained through standing qigong alone.
Also, standing qigong is usually very general in its healing applications. An art like Taiji, on the other hand, gets very specific in what it can heal. There are postures in the forms, for instance, that can be used as standing qigongs to heal specific disease states of specific organs. These same postures can be used to diagnose ailments so you know exactly what's wrong and how to treat it. Keep in mind that Taiji IS qigong, just a bit more in-depth with stuff than simple standing qigong.
As Sam is saying, Taiji is like the graduate school of the taoist arts.
Chris
Don't sweat it, I didn't find your post contentious.
A couple of things.
1) My reference to Xingyiquan dabbling in the internal. Compared to some arts (Yi Quan etc ) Xingyi doesn't practice the internal side as much
As for it being considered an internal art, sure it is, But what many practitioners forget is that it is also an external art and should be practiced also as such. (in a martial sense)
This could be said for much of western internal arts.
(not my opinion but my Sifu)
I've re-read both post and still it looks to me like both of you where refering to an external art becoming internal if it practice some form of Nei gong
Comming from that veiw point, I was trying to say that most external arts have many internal properties already, most of the general public doesn't see it.
Judging by your last post I'm not sure you understand much of what goes in internal arts goes on in the external (they just start that type of training at a different level)
But maybe you do understand this
Sit down with someone of high level in Shaolin, Fukien White Crane, Hung Gar, Koei Kan, Shotokan, Shorin Ryu etc etc etc etc...and start talking shop, you will quickly find out internal arts don't hold a patent on internalism.
Get struck by an external of a high level experience and you will realize there is something else there beside brute strength.
This is redundent because I know you "know" this
Also my story on the "macho kicking contest" was meant to convay that external styles have internal power very close if not the same as internal arts.
However...
It is very hard to convay what one means through short dictum found on this forum. Yet after the third read (to me) it still looks like I'm not understanding what both of you meant.
It's true........... I am hard headed "that's for sure"
Chris:
The only time I find someone contentious is if they keep paraphrasing someone's words then commenting on them in a derogatory manner.
Something I haven't ever seen you do.
Paul Calugaru:D
Paul, thanks for taking the time for these replies. I know responding to posts with a legitimate exchange of ideas takes extra time.
RE: "But what many practitioners forget is that it is also an external art and should be practiced also as such. (in a martial sense)". I could be very wrong on this, but this sentence seems to imply that external=martial and that internal=qigong/health/meditation, etc. If so, I would point out that such a conclusion would be entirely in error. However, if it is an admonition that internal artists ought to practice the martial side of their arts, I couldn't agree more. In fact, without practicing both sides diligently, one is by definition not practicing a Taoist internal art. The paradoxical concept of Taiji is fundamental to all Taoist internal arts, and requires both aspects in order to develop fully.
RE: " I've re-read both post and still it looks to me like both of you where refering to an external art becoming internal if it practice some form of Nei gong.". Ah, now I can see where you're coming from. That is close, but not exactly what we were discussing. brucelee2 didn't mention whether he was practicing an internal art or not, so I didn't assume either way. My points so far have been that, even if one IS a practitioner of an internal art, limiting one's practice to zhan zhuang at the expense of dynamic practice will not confer all of the benefits of that art.
RE: " Comming from that veiw point, I was trying to say that most external arts have many internal properties already, most of the general public doesn't see it.". I would generally agree with this. However, having internal properties and being congruent internal arts are very different things.
RE: " Judging by your last post I'm not sure you understand much of what goes in internal arts goes on in the external (they just start that type of training at a different level)". I have 27 years of familiarity with various external arts and just under 20 with neijia. I understand that, at the most advanced levels, most of the external arts begin to incorporate certain traits commonly found in internal arts, and that this adds tremendously to the practitioner's ability, facility, and sensitivity. The classic, and well-discussed, example of this is Hung Gar's Iron Wire form. Other good examples would be some of the advanced katas of Goju Ryu, advanced interpretations of Pentjak Silat djurus, and even to a lesser extent some of the blending drills of Ninjutsu. However, the internal Chinese Taoist martial arts begin where these other arts end. That is one of the most important factors in the notoriously long learning curve of the neijia.
RE: " Sit down with someone of high level in Shaolin, Fukien White Crane, Hung Gar, Koei Kan, Shotokan, Shorin Ryu etc etc etc etc...and start talking shop, you will quickly find out internal arts don't hold a patent on internalism.". I have done exactly that with many high-level practitioners of various external styles. In fact, doing so played an important part in helping me understand the difference between neijia and external arts which might contain some internal aspects.
As far as external guys having good power? Oh yeah, I've got the bruises and memories LOL.
There exists the theory that taiji was originally 13 postures that students held for prolonged periods of time. Yang Cheng Fu discusses this in "T'Ai Chi Ch'Uan Ta Wen, Questions and Answers on T'Ai Chi Boxing". It was not until much later that they were linked together as a form.
Boy, you guys have got me so confused even I can't remember what my original intent with the question was. So, let's refine the question. Assuming someone is practicing only zhan zhuang, say an hour a day, what benefits, specifically, could they expect? And if they were also practicing an external art, say hung gar, then how would their hung gar be affected? Thanks again.
Well, your health in general would improve. You would become more relaxed and stress would not affect you as easily. Your posture would improve. Your Hung Gar would probably become more relaxed. It's also possible that whatever effects you might get from practicing the internal work from your art would be enhanced a little bit.
Three Circle Standing qigong, which is the one I picture in my mind when someone mentions standing qigong, provides some great benefits, but nothing specific, as it is a general sort of exercise. I can tell you that I practiced it for a year before learning any Taiji or Bagua, myself, and I feel that it gave me a great foundation for learning Taiji, in that I learned proper breathing, posture, mindset, and relaxation.
I would recommend that you start with less than an hour a day, though, if you are not used to stance training and the like. 15 minutes is normal, about 45 minutes is pretty much the ideal. But an hour or more seems like a waste of time to me.
if you practice zhan zhuang, you would develop strength in the legs (particularly the quads) and your arms depending how hight you hold them up. It is an isometric exercise anyway. This applies to both external and internal martial artists. For the internal people, they have to stand to try to get into the optimal, relaxed body structure and move qi around their bodies with their minds. And that is good for developing static internal power.Quote:
Originally posted by brucelee2
Boy, you guys have got me so confused even I can't remember what my original intent with the question was. So, let's refine the question. Assuming someone is practicing only zhan zhuang, say an hour a day, what benefits, specifically, could they expect? And if they were also practicing an external art, say hung gar, then how would their hung gar be affected? Thanks again.
I'll definitely second what Sam said. Learning how to breathe correctly is a nice benefit. Lowering of blood cortisol levels (the stress hormone) and regulation of sugar metabolism are nice ones too. Much of the really groovy benefits depend on what the Yi (mind/intent) is doing while you are practicing it. Early on, you're learning about minor differences/sensations/corrections for postural imperfections or imbalances. You also learn how to use only that amount of muscular tension necessary to maintain proper structure and how to relax the rest of it. You learn where this fine line is and how to recognize it instantly by feel.
This may sound a bit silly but you learn to actually feel your body from the inside. For most of the day, we normally don't pay much attention to sensations from many parts of the body. Zhan zhuang lets us develop a finer ability to detect sensation, specifically as it applies to differences in muscle tension, alignment and balance.
Now, if on top of all that, you learn to use your mind to do other things while you are standing, there's a surprising bit you can accomplish...all while simply standing there.
Chris,
Could you give some examples of uses of the yi/mind during zhan zhuang? The only one I do is the running of the microcosmic orbit.
Sam,
Just curious as to why you think an hour or more of zhan zhuang is a waste. I understand that BK Frantzis used to do it for like 4 or 5 hours a day when he was doing regular tournaments, and I believe my bagua sifu said that when he was training they had to do 2 hours straight and if they moved even a little their sifu hit 'em with a stick!
who's your bagua teacher and who was his teacher, bruce? I can't imagine how you can stand that long straight. First is boredem and second is that your legs probably can't even handle that pressure for that long. Chen Qing Zhou said he himself can't do the entire laojia chen form perfectly. Of course, I guess moving correctly is probably harder than standing correctly. Also, I never heard of standing perfectly still for zhan zhuang. There are subtle movements I thought.
Well, there are very minute movements. Your body is designed to keep balance by constantly adjusting. So although we try to stand perfectly still, it's impossible.
BL2,
I just think doing more than an hour is a waste of time. And that is if you can hold the posture that long. I prefer to do a few minutes of it, and then move on to something else. I may do standing qigong for an hour or more, and I used to make myself do at least 2 hours every morning, but it was not a single posture, it was several different ones. Of course, I practice a few different styles, and I try to get averything that I can in in the small amount of time I have.
You want a real exercise to do with your mind, BL2? During your standing practice, don't think. It's easy to focus on something like the Upper Heavenly Circulation, but difficult to not think.:)
Chris;
I had to laugh, after reading your last post it accrued to me that it was exactly what I would have said if the rolls were reversed.
Your assumptions were right on. When I refered to internal arts being the same as external arts, I meant in a martial sense. (i.e. both are equal forms of self-defense).
Most of the time I refer to things in a general sense.
I’ve been into Xingyiquan since 1983 and have done the external thing ( a shodan in Shotokan and Aikido "my second love" outside Xingyquan. (I still think you got me in the years/experience department, can I call you “old honorable one?”………Respectfully of course. :)
Traveling around all the Neijia news groups one tends to come across the notion that internal arts are better than external arts. I think this notion is silly and I may have been coming from this platform. People usually cite an internal art's martial prowess as to the reason why. I don’t believe internal arts are any better martially, I think they are just two sides of the same coin.
Different yes, but still the same coin.
Although there is a way of doing things internal and once learned are hard to break. If I had a dollar for every time I got yelled at in the Shotokan dojo for doing something the Xingyi way, I would be rich.
Something sparked a good point.
Obviously I prefer the internal side of the coin, and think internal arts are better, but mainly because of the benefits your posts were alluding too.
Few cite these reasons as to why internal arts may be more advantageous than external arts.
I’m not only referring to the Nei gong aspects you mentioned, but much in the way most internal quan are performed and it’s effects on the body long term.
I’ve seen someone burn his body out in an external style. Usually knees and hips get blown. (This is one of the many reasons why I have returned to Xingyiquan.
It’s important to stress this longevity, plus the “as you get older, you get better, while not slowing down thing. “
I don’t see it as much in external styles, usually I see the exact opposite.
I should have helped you point that out.
Good thread.
Paul Calugaru
Wonder while standing for an hour if one could get the same benefits while watching or listening to something else.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneChing