What do you guys tell your students to help them to understand what reaching is.
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What do you guys tell your students to help them to understand what reaching is.
i'm not a teacher just a student, how would you explain it to me
thanks in advance
From a boxer's perspective, on defense ANYTIME your hands leave your guard (BOTH your hands are up by your chin/head covering you - hence the term "guard": you are guarded from being hit - and whenever they move from that position you create openings) to attempt to engage your opponent's hands/arm to deal with his punches, it is considered reaching -- you reach by moving your hands from guard and moving toward his hand/arm (your reach for it). Sound boxing maintains your hands in close proximity to your head/body when you catch, parry, etc. so that you are always protected -- even if you miss the catch, parry, etc. and even if you are responding to a feint/fake. The hands never extend away from the guard on defense, only on offense.
On offense, reaching is when you over-extend and/or unbalance yourself (come out of your stance) in an attempt to strike something that is out of range.
cool, post that on a boxing forum for people that give two 5hits
Happily, on some level I treat each Wing Chun parry as it's own entity. Therefore the precise execution of each block varies. The goal of every WC man is to not be there when the strike comes, the parry is just there as an insurance policy. However, if the footwork goes to plan, you won't actually block anything. My biggest concern with students is that they are trying to block punches that aren't threats. My good students will flash a block but only make contact if the strike is on target. if the strike is on target the goal is to make the strike miss by a small margin of 2-3 inches.
Second, is to obey the box theory which is essentially executing all of your blocks as if you and your opponent. are within a refrigerator box that is no more than 3 inches larger than you.
I teach the defense in layers. Blocks should involve as many layers of defense as possible being the hand/arm, shoulder, and head movement. Every block can't involve every layer but the more layers of defense available the more confidence that a student has to not reach. This idea in conjunction with footwork means that every strike that gets through should have gone through an average of 3 layers of defense.
Specific pak advice: Don't get lazy and push down too much.
Specific bong advice. Don't use it unless the body shots are killing you or to catch kicks.
care to share?
However, if the footwork goes to plan, you won't actually block anything.
what is the goal of your footwork?
My biggest concern with students is that they are trying to block punches that aren't threats. My good students will flash a block but only make contact if the strike is on target. if the strike is on target the goal is to make the strike miss by a small margin of 2-3 inches.
how do you generate power for the block?
There isn't a "WCK-take". WCK's method of fighting does not involve blocking, parrying, etc. like boxers or kickboxers (which is why classical WCK terminology doesn't include terms like block or parry) -- it is not for outside fighting.
If someone wants to develop good outside fighting skills then they should go train at a good boxing or MT or kickboxing gym.
Training WCK kickboxing is training to fail.
However, there is something in WCK that pertains to the notion of reaching. There is a training kuit that says "strength must be exacting in position, never overextended." Of course, this pertains to contact.
In the context of basic WC, I would just say To put me in a position to hit and not be hit. The priority of course is to not get hit. Every strike requires footwork to generate optimal power.
It is somewhat block specific IMO, but generally speaking the idea is to obey the immovable elbow principle, keep the elbows down, and use footwork to minimize the strength needed to "block." In my opinion, it isn't so much that a block is powerful as it is the effectiveness of the block which involves footwork, proper arm mechanics, shoulder mechanics, and the use of the shoulder.
What i heard is WCK short Jin Power generation becomes important here;
This is because there are time and often the footwork is not adequate and imperfect;
one will run out of time or space, one will encounter the opponents' changing in his attacked; and one doesnt want to reach out but still could accelerate one's momentum to catch the action.
reaching is bad , why ? ask yourself, what is the ck for ? To practice spinning fast :D to practice walking left, right, to turn fast and walk again :D
We have an axis line, so does the opponent. bridges give axis to the axis lines [sorry].
We generate force as we move towards our opponents with our own body mass in motion.
If we step first as we 'reach' we lose the momentum of the body mass available.
A simple way to show this involves offering an arm to a student to remove however they like from their intended strike path. You simply resist their attempts ...if they are using a bad 'idea' , they will step first, then to reach with arms second, THEN hit :D hah ! a strong well trained vt fighter will simply hold their lead arm [man sao] outstretched and laugh at the continuing attempts to remove the arm.:D until he offers help to fix the , dilema.
Maintaining the vertical axis body line is simply aligning your body to deliver its 'weight' in motion , coupled with whatever techniques your using, anything from a simple punch, or po-pai....doesnt matter what the hands do, as long as they do it WITH the body...all together, not step,lean, pak sao, then punch bring rear foot up...:o all done in a 1,2,3,4...etc...
Once the student learns what they have to do to remove an arm using their momentum, they can also be shown that they are overdoing it, by simply removing the same arm you held up rigidly....if they fly past you out of control leaning etc...then they arent moving the axis line as CK , but reaching still and out control.
A good example of this is when you try to evade the attack by side stepping a foot or 2, the person simply turns and faces you , turning on their axis line effortlessly...allowing them to maintain their attack even if you go walk about...controlled movement with ballistic displacment in the hands and body momentum to back it up further....people with small frames, women, etc..can generate tremendous force when timed like this into explosive attacks or counters.
begginers tend to reach as a tentative 'control' hand becasue they are hesitating to enter and attack with gusto ...
More chum kil to avoid leaning back, forward, sideways...
Most arts just have a piece of the story. Boxing is no different. Boxing deficiencies show up real quickly against guys who can kick to the head and when small gloves are used. WC can looks deficient when when when it can't control the range.
Everything looks deficient when T. does it.
the use of bad timing...VT tries to execute simultaneous actions.
a vt fighter, can hold a lead man sao outstretched and create a 'line' barrier.....part of centerline fighting. Part of fighting drills incorporate line maintenance drills by simply alternating the lead man sao and changing angles,shifting stances without any strikes...helps stop chasing 'offline'. Re-enforces the confidence to simply attack and defend along YOUR lines of engagement, rather than 'fight hands' you attack the face :D
I am simply offering some 'meat' for the partner, drilling. I place my lead arm rigidly along my centerline. He tries to use a 'technique' to clear a shot to my face , making my arm the 'lever' to my axis line. My stance is also acting as a barrier, due to the stable nature of a vt stance. To create an opening of this line and structure integrity, the partner needs to use a displacing action to clear a small path for their punching attack...iow, their aim is not to over trap, reach and touch my arm for any longer then they have to , to make an attacking punch...once this 'punch' is achieved the hand they removed doesnt need to be 'touched' only my face :D because im to busy attacking face....to worry about touching your arm.
You can also suddenly remove the 'rigid' arm to also address, arm fighting. A very bad habit many VT do ....seeking to over control arms with their own hands, turning into pak sao attacks with no punches. Slap, slap....if you think your student is doing this, quickly remove your hands from their intended contact, suddenly, and watch their hands do everything 'except' hit you in the jaw.
vt punches are capable of simultaneous attack and defense because of the elbow control from SLT.
if you haven't learned the tan / jum striking ideas, then you wont be able to achieve this way of fighting. No jum sao, means your compensating for the lack of a 'partner' strike to tan by using a 'trap' or over controlling hand instead...no balance in your punching attacks, more one hand traps, one hand hits.
kill the brain with punches, dont fight arms, they cant be knocked out with punches :D
Above is a lot of words to describe a series of actions done in a millisecond :D the big bang theory is alive and doing well in VT :D
Training to fail.
If you fight at a distance and "hold a lead man sao outstretched" -- what many people teach as the WCK guard -- you aren't creating any barrier (where do you get such ideas?), you are only exposing yourself. This is precisely what a boxer wants you to do. Shifting stances and changing angles won't help you since boxers hit from all angles, and without needing to shift stances (so they are much faster since they only have to move their hands to change a line). All it takes is a round with a decent boxer to show you this.
The man sao/wu sao "guard" you frequently see WCK people do is a common misapplication -- that is not a "guard" or a posture or a ready position but an ACTION used in establishing contact (as you do in the opening of the dummy). Like most actions/movements in WCK, it is commonly -- and poorly -- taught first as a fixed position (like holding your wu sao in front of your chest). Unfortunately, often people never get past this beginning stage. And since they only do unrealsitic training (they don't go that round with a decent boxer), they develop all kinds of unrealistic "ideas" -- like the above.
Again, you don't understand VT. If you think I stand still and present a guard hand to a boxer while standing in a lead leg stance, moving back and forth :D
Its a drilling idea to deal with a guy who just puts an arm in your way , like a jab , a grab , a defensive push, a pointing finger, aka to us a 'line of force'. It is just a training aid to develop a fighter, not the be all end all of our repertoire.
And further to your joke of an understanding, we 'play' people by getting THEM to make the contact with US ...the reason we dont chase hands, think about it....why dont WE chase hands.
Why is it such a cardinal error ?
I know how you would fight me, you would fight my hands , not my face. You would seek contact first, not attacking first and constantly. Subtle but , glaringly obvious.
I understand perfectly what you are talking about -- I've seen it, and its variations, since I began WCK (almost 30 years ago).
People don't put and hold some "arm in your way" -- on the outside they throw bombs from all directions, all angles, all ranges, while moving.Quote:
Its a drilling idea to deal with a guy who just puts an arm in your way , like a jab , a grab , a defensive push, a pointing finger, aka to us a 'line of force'. It is just a training aid to develop a fighter, not the be all end all of our repertoire.
You don't seem to grasp what "chasing hands" means. It doesn't mean to not actively seek contact or maintain contact with an opponent (or his arms) but pertains to what your objective is with contact (what you are doing with your contact). If your objective is only to maintain contact, then you are chasing hands. It is purely defensive sticking.Quote:
And further to your joke of an understanding, we 'play' people by getting THEM to make the contact with US ...the reason we dont chase hands, think about it....why dont WE chase hands.
Why is it such a cardinal error ?
However, using contact/attachment actively, to try and control your opponent while striking him, is not chasing hands. In that case you are chasing control, and using your attachment to your opponent, regardless of what part of the opponent you are in contact with, to obtain that control.
Letting an opponent initiate contact will put you behind the timing. That's not a good place to be.
No, you have no idea. I'm not going to be fighting your hands or your face. I am going to be controlling you, your whole body. I would be tossing you around like a rag doll while I continually thump you. You don't seem to grasp that my attack is what establishes the contact. And that I will break your structure on contact and keep it broken. That is WCK's method of fighting.Quote:
I know how you would fight me, you would fight my hands , not my face. You would seek contact first, not attacking first and constantly. Subtle but , glaringly obvious.
He said that all he uses is CSL stand up. I guess he must be lying.
I have pure CSL Wing Chun - that has all the stand up skills I need. Its not mixed with boxing or a mma. It works in MMA thats application of my wing chun. We have chinese Boxing skills - again application of our art. We don't need to mix it, we learn from other arts and see how we would do what we see within our wing chun framework, if its not within our prinicles then we would not use it.
-Alan Orr
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...&postcount=663
Stand up - we have CSL Wing Chun.
-Alan Orr
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...&postcount=680
There are a number of other posts that say the same thing referring to "I" Alan or "we' he and his students. I think that it would be accurate to say that we also refers to CSL as I am sure that he considers himself a representative of it.
30 years means little, quality not quantity.
if you understand what I'm talking about why do you answer like you have no clue ?
You really dont understand. Saying you do understand, wont change the fact that what you write, contradicts this.
you will fight my hands....:D
Certainly, strong offense is a part of good defense, but at the same time WC isn't toughman fighting either. Also, if the best advice that you can give is, "the best defense is a good offense," you might be lacking something in your defense. Also, I am not really willing to summarize defense is such a cliche manner. Spar with some good boxers under their rule set and you will see that nearly every boxer within a weight class hits the same and the only difference in each is the defense.
Hello,
I think that anyone with a clue would realize that Man Sau is an effective tool which can be used to occupy the line and force the opponenet to remove it in order to strike to center. Having said that, Man Sau does not "reach" for the opponent, rather it occupies the line and forces him to deal with it. In order to effectively use Man Sau you must be able to coordinate your facing, without proper facing the opponent will simply avoid the Man and attack from another angle.
Man Sau should have subtle forward energy, imho. One should not extend the Man Sau else it becomes something else, which sometimes is what is needed.
My point is anyone who thinks that Man Sau is ineffective or not useful for fighting really does not, imo, understand Man Sau.
Also, while talk of range is all well and good, keep in mind that once the opponent enters the range where they can hit me, in most cases they are also in the range where I can hit them. ;)
agreed , movement is required to angle strategically ...the tan sao's role in seung ma toi ma drills is the 'leading' entry 'line of force' delivered in a regular drill... it makes us react to counter 'that' particular flank/angle correctly with the correct distance to also make a punch with our jum sao ...or pak sao etc.... iow not to simply put an arm in the center and rigidly stay there :D drills and fighting. Sometimes the abstract methods can be misleading to the uninformed.
If we aren't stopped, we are punching with man sao ~ wu sao...in continuous cycles.
And yes if man sao moves forwards it becomes something else, a punch, usually ...unless something stops it.
Exactly.
WCK teaches a strategic approach and the tools necessary to implement that approach for getting safely in the phone booth (entering/bridging the gap), staying in the phone booth, and being able to fight effectively in that operating range.
WCK's signature drills, chi sao, lop sao, etc. are unrealistic drills in that operating range.
I carry one with me everywhere I go :D
Reaching is BAD anytime you over -extend yourself beyond what you need to do.
In other words, if you don't need to reach ( the strike is coming to you) and you reach for it, that is a bad thing.
If you need to reach 6" and you reach 8", that is bad.
Context is everything as always.
You do only as much as you have to, you need to do, beyond that, it can be counter-productive.
Centerline fighting encompasses our bodyweight behind the arm actions. The elbow positions trained by the SLT ensure the body is behind the 'elbow in' actions, ergo one reason why we maintain the elbows behind the wrists.
If you reach, lean forwards, etc...you lose the total of the sum of the parts in motion as you attack .
Economy of motion , all in a 'grenade' attack with a belt load of grenades . Using the hips in the actions, ensures the legs are being 'shocked' into the action of the arms simultaneously.
Everything we do should be in a flowing moving attack. When we do the dummy we are using the arms as the explosion point , timing 3 actions into a flowing assault while cycling the man sao / wu sao with punches or lead jut/pak/bong etc...
When we do a bong/wu on the dummy we use the rotation of the hips to generate force, coupled with fast rotation of the arms..in one beat. BANG !, creating openings with displacing force, like the dan gwan of the pole before striking .displace , strike, only the hands can do it in one beat.