to get a different subject on here whats the most important thing to you about learning your art?
what did you start
why did you stay
what part do you like about it
what parts dont you like
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to get a different subject on here whats the most important thing to you about learning your art?
what did you start
why did you stay
what part do you like about it
what parts dont you like
1. I started with tcma in my youth.
2. I enjoyed it, I stayed because I was enjoying doing it.
3. I like the abilities acquired and I like when the training pays off and shows.
4. I don't like the face games in tcma and the political or personal deceptions are low.
TCMA, Kung Kuen.Quote:
what did you start
DIdn't, because of moving to a different country ended up doing karate, judo, boxing and wrestling, then moved back to Canada and did TKD, kenjutsu, Judo and FMA.Quote:
why did you stay
Finally came back to TCMA with WC, then returned to Hung Kuen and also SPM.
The specialty kungs and forms.Quote:
what part do you like about it
The BS that is propagated by those that have little to no practical experience fighting trained fighters.Quote:
what parts dont you like
cocaine
I can stop anytime I want
http://totalfratmove.com/wp-content/...24-590x396.jpg
what did you start
The original Karate Kid movie, in elementary school, the idea of doing karate was fascinating.
why did you stay
Didn't, the instructor had to move away. A few years later, a friend told me about an amazing old man teaching some cool "karate" stuff. I went to see for myself and was amazed when I first watched 7* Praying Mantis Kung Fu. Stayed until I had to move about a decade later. Somewhere in that mix I saw UFC 1. Couldn't find BJJ and knew I had to cross train to keep it real, so I chose the next best option for ground fighting - Judo. Ironically it's the big throws that keeps me in that art.
what part do you like about it
Friendships that I've built through the years.
what parts dont you like
The constant in flow of newbies that have you reteaching the same ol' all the time. and veterans that are afraid to spar... and Higher than Thou attitudes.
what did you start
American Karate
why did you stay
Made it to blue belt then moved away. Took about ten years before I found Aikido which tne moved to Jui Jitsu / Judo / Kenjutsu / and finally Wah Lum and Batto Do. As you can see there was an odd progression but I had the martial bug. I stayed with the judo / jui jitsu for 10 years, achieved instructor rank then the school closed down and work ramped up, children were born etc. Now I study Wah Lum and Batto do.
what part do you like about it
The friendships that I've built through the years, learning and teaching.
what parts dont you like
MightyB, you and I think alike!
The constant in flux of newbies that have you reteaching the same ole all the time, and veterans that are afraid to spar... and Higher than Thou attitudes!
Do you guys feel the need to leave your art or style to fill in gaps or holes that your style doesn't fulfill?
In my case it's not a matter of leaving one art to find another that fills in the gaps but enlarging upon one through experience in others. For example, my jujitsu training has good ground work and submission techniques but the movements are based on grappling with little attention to strikes and a stylistic concern for safety. My cma has strikes, grappling, throws and even a little ground work but is not readily applicable to extended grappling on the ground. Given a choice I would stick with the cma because it is more inclusive and has better transitions among the various skills. Adding the ground work from jj to my base is easier than trying to add boxing and weapons skills to the jujitsu.
Even if I hadn't of left because of re-location I probably would have cross trained no matter what.
If combat effectiveness is paramount in one MA training then cross training ( or at least cross-testing) is crucial, indispensable really.
EX:
Judo has ground work but nothing to the degree of BJJ.
Hung Kuen had some edged weapon work but nothing to the degree of the FMA.
And so forth.
what did you start
I'm not sure if I started taekwondo as a kid before or after the karate kid movie, but it was pretty close to then. I did this until I was 18 and moved to university.
why did you stay?
I didn't. In university, I was introduced to TCMA (7stars mantis) through the university wushu club. It was fun and interesting. That experience was good. After the teacher left, I tried several other TCMA schools but found the intensity and the experience of the teachers to be very limited.
After university, I moved to Japan for six years where I practiced mostly Aikido and kickboxing, got some good experience in Judo and Kendo. Also during that time I traveled a lot in China and got a good introduction to Shaoliln gongfu. I managed to find a group in Osaka that trains Shaolin and met with them about once a month for fun.
Then I moved to Wuhan to teach at the sports school there for three years. I mostly trained with the professional Sanda program, but I was able to informally train Shaolin, Baji, qigong, etc as well. For one month I trained Wugulun Shaolin full time which was a very interesting experience. During my time in China, a lot of the traditional training I did was informally with friends and I taught them things like Aikido as well.
So, in essence, I train whatever I can where I live.
what part do you like about it
I enjoy the friendships I've made. TCMA itself is fascinating to study, and provides some historical context to the modern arts that I do.
what parts dont you like
Passive-agressiveness, superstitions, superiority complexes
The groupies.
uh, there ARE groupies, aren't there?
I ask because it seems as though TCMA are being beat up on these boards with the MMA guys and I feel my system has everything I need with the exception of some higher level ground work which i usually work in with other teachers in my school.
But if you feel your gretting what you need and it works then whats the need to jump on the MMA bandwagon
Most systems have what most people need, as long as they are TRAINED properly.
That said, unless you test yourself with the highest level available to you, how do you know if your systems has what you need from it?
Granted for most that is a moot point BUT for those that are combat oriented, it is THE point.
Because TCMA hasn't been able to prove its effectiveness compared to other proven effective arts for the past few decades at least.
I train in traditional arts in addition to more modern arts but I am aware of where they are strong and where they need supplementation, or replacement of their methodology entirely.
Effectiveness is first and foremost what matters. If others can prove their art effective in full contact fighting repeatedly then they have more evidence for their style being effective. Heck I've seen Vale Tudo matches where there were literally no rules. It doesn't make it that different from MMA with the exception of soccer kicks, spine strikes, back of the head, etc. Eye gouges and the like don't really make a difference and the guys who won with no rules are the same who would win with rules.
One of the reasons I started the "Observations" thread was to point out what TCMA has that is valuable. I didn't mean it had to be compared to mma or any other art in particular, but it is a different animal and worthy of being praised for what it can offer. You just can't separate it from its inherent cultural values without degrading it into something that belongs to pop culture.
I think cross training is very good, it gives you more perspective. I think it's important to spar with people from different disciplines and backgrounds, it makes you better, more well rounded. People from the same school may have a tendency to approach sparring/fighting in a very similar fashion.
I like the MMA guys because I know they're combat oriented. With TMA guys you have some that are and a lot that aren't. Sometimes the ones who are combat oriented don't get enough of what they need/want on account of all the other students with different interests.
what did you start
This and that.
why did you stay
The effectiveness.
what part do you like about it
That part that let's me know what is b.s and what is legit.
what parts dont you like
The parts that are b.s.
Bacon is this your personal experience or are you speaking what others have done and said?Quote:
Because TCMA hasn't been able to prove its effectiveness compared to other proven effective arts for the past few decades at least.
Because mantis has proven its effectiveness since I was first introduced to it 24 years ago.
larouxI agreeQuote:
Leave? No. Pick up anything from anywhere that is useful and works? Yes.
I started doing kenpo at 15, then switched to judo and shotakan at 16 till about 18. Then girls, bars, school life in general got in the way. Started training again at 32 in CLF till about 35. Another break from training for about a year or two. Decided to get my lazy ass back in gear again so I tried WC And hung ga, I liked the hung ga, but the school was forms only. WC I never really bonded with. I then switched to BJJ. Been training BJJ for the last 4 to 5 years (just got my purple belt recently). I missed striking though and wanted to spare, so for the last year and a half have been training kyokushin with the BJJ.
Omg every thread turns into this. This forum is getting ridiculous
wensu
yes I realize this but it has become like band wagon recently you must admit. why else are we having the same discussion mm vs TMA on every thread, ?Quote:
The NJSACB Unified Rules of MMA was a dozen years ago.
It hardly qualifies as a bandwagon; it is an established and persistent reality.
Bacon, first please answer my question,
As I said many times Joel used 8 step praying mantis in the UFC and was successful and won. So YES.Quote:
and Really, so name me a full mantis only guys who are nhb, vale tudo, or mma bigs shots. Can you name me even one of repute? Didn't think so.
also ALL fights are not measured in the ring brother, my mantis has been effective in REAL fights, not just organized sport fights.
One crap fighter who won against crap fighters when the talent pool wasn't that good. THAT is you answer? HAHAHAHA!
So you have t3h d34dly for teh realz streetz. What a joke. Vale Tudo matches have no rules. Nhb has few rules. MMA has only a slight amount more. It's the best testing ground for skills, the only place you're going to find opponents of any worth, and the only way you can show evidence of your level of skill as shown by your level of opponent and your fight record. Even if you use your **** argument the Thai boxers, wrestlers, boxers, bjjers, kickboxers, etc. still have a leg up on you because they can win against skilled opponents and in "real fights." So they still have you beat.
Essentially if you cling to that argument what you're saying is your style and the other TCMA styles can only beat untrained yahoos when you can sort to attacks like eye gouging or bottling someone because you can't win against anyone of skill while fighting on even ground.
Bacon
dude whats with constant insults? why would call someone a crap fighter? are YOU good enough to be in the UFC? whats your professional record at ? so if you insult others calling him crap then what kind of fighter are YOU? less than crap?Quote:
One crap fighter who won against crap fighters when the talent pool wasn't that good. THAT is you answer? HAHAHAHA!
LOL no rules? you seriously posted that? I shouldn't even bother to respond to that posts as you are getting a little out of hand. shall I copy and paste the rule set for you?Quote:
Vale Tudo matches have no rules. Nhb has few rules. MMA has only a slight amount more.
Weight classes:
Lightweight - over 145 lbs. to 155 lbs.
Welterweight - over 155 lbs. to 170 lbs.
Middleweight - over 170 lbs. to 185 lbs.
Light Heavyweight - over 185 lbs. to 205 lbs.
Heavyweight - over 205 lbs. to 265 lbs.
Bout duration:
All non-championship bouts shall be three rounds.
All championship bouts shall be five rounds.
Rounds will be five minutes in duration.
A one-minute rest period will occur between each round.
Fouls:
1. Butting with the head.
2. Eye gouging of any kind.
3. Biting.
4. Hair pulling.
5. Fish hooking.
6. Groin attacks of any kind.
7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
8. Small joint manipulation.
9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
13. Grabbing the clavicle.
14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
21. Spitting at an opponent.
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
23. Holding the ropes or the fence.
24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
30. Interference by the corner.
31. Throwing in the towel during competition.
Ways To Win:
1. Submission by:
Physical tap out.
Verbal tap out.
2. Technical knockout by the referee stopping the contest.
3. Decision via the scorecards, including:
Unanimous decision [all judges pick the same fighter as the winner].
Split decision [One judge picks one fighter, the other two judges pick the other fighter].
Majority decision [two of three judges pick the same fighter as the winner].
Draw, including:
Unanimous draw.
Majority draw.
Split draw.
4. Technical decision.
5. Technical draw.
6. Disqualification.
7. Forfeit.
8. No contest.
Referee may Restart the round:
If the fighters reach a stalemate and do not work to improve position or finish.
I dont know how you fight but the fights I have been in and theirs a lot as I was a bad kid while growing up in an Italian neighborhood in NY, so I would do all the above and whatever it takes to win or get away to safety
opponents of any worth? so your saying there not good fighter and tough *******s that dont compete in the whole world? think about your statement. Im sure there some pretty tough guys i prison whom dont compete you can find a worthy opponent in that environment dont you think?Quote:
It's the best testing ground for skills, the only place you're going to find opponents of any worth, and the only way you can show evidence of your level of skill as shown by your level of opponent and your fight record.
when and where did I say that? but let me assure you when your in the streets no one asks HOW you won a fight IF you won.Quote:
Essentially if you cling to that argument what you're saying is your style and the other TCMA styles can only beat untrained yahoos when you can sort to attacks like eye gouging or bottling someone because you can't win against anyone of skill while fighting on even ground.
PS you can get your point across without insults to whom people you don't know
PSS if your so bad please post your professional record from online so they we may see it otherwise you have no room to put others down for their accomplishments if you haven't accomplished it on your own. be well
It's not an insult, it's an objective assessment. It doesn't take a pro fighter to recognize the drastic change in the talent pool of the UFC from when he competed. The guys have only gotten better and better in most cases. Now looks at his record 2-4-0. That's not exactly stellar for any time period in the UFC and even less so when we take into account the talent pool of the day and who he won against.
Yep. Vale Tudo matches have no rules. The ones from nhb and mma if you removed, the same fights would still be winning and you wouldn't see TCMA guys winning. They can't even win WITH the rules.
We're not talking about social factors, element of surprise, etc. We're talking about a straight up comparison of hand to hand combative skills and TCMA has no evidence for being effective compared to the other styles which have a wealth of victories in full contact fighting.
Member Kimbo slice. Oooh he was such bad man. Then he got his rear end handed to him because fighting nobodies and fighting people who actually know what they're doing who weight the same or more than you are two different matters.
and again if your art or any TCMA has any fighters of worth besides one guy with a 2-4-0 record in a less than stellar talent pool feel free to post them up. As I said there are plenty of wrestlers, boxers, kickboxers, Thai boxers, bjjers, etc who I can point. All you've pointed to is one guy with a crap record from a less than stellar talent pool. Not exactly your shining star expectantly considering he's your only example.
so joyce gracie dan servean ken smarock oleg taktaroff where all scrubs and not good fighters in their day? LOl anret you basing your weak argument on BJJ???????Quote:
It's not an insult, it's an objective assessment. It doesn't take a pro fighter to recognize the drastic change in the talent pool of the UFC from when he competed.
you failed to post your record.Quote:
Now looks at his record 2-4-0. That's not exactly stellar for any time period in the UFC and even less so when we take into account the talent pool of the day and who he won against.
again stop talking out of your butt and do a little research.... From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia notice it says limited NOT NO RULES. your wrong.Quote:
Yep. Vale Tudo matches have no rules.
Vale tudo (Portuguese pronunciation: [ˈvali ˈtudu]; meaning "everything allowed", or "anything goes") are full-contact unarmed combat events, with a limited number of rules, that became popular in Brazil during the 20th century.[1] Vale Tudo has been considered a combat sport by some observers.[2] While Vale Tudo uses techniques from many martial art styles, making it similar to modern mixed martial arts competitions, it is a distinct style in its own right.[citation needed]
The ones from nhb and mma if you removed, the same fights would still be winning and you wouldn't see TCMA guys winning. They can't even win WITH the rules.
thats a speculation and your personal opinion. not fact
also why do you discredit TCMA so... did you teacher not teach you did you pay too much money for calsse sand feel you didnt get what you wanted? or have you never taken TCMA
and just feel the need to bash something you dont know about based on watching TV?
element of surprise is in all fights. all TMCA and TMA TJMA MMA is hand to hand combative skills.Quote:
We're not talking about social factors, element of surprise, etc. We're talking about a straight up comparison of hand to hand combative skills and TCMA has no evidence for being effective compared to the other styles which have a wealth of victories in full contact fighting.
where do you think MMA came from? you seem to exclude TMCA form MMA if it wernt for TMCA there is nothing to Mix hence mixed martial arts, dont you think part of that mix has Chinese kung fu in it? if not your extremely ignorant
.Quote:
and again if your art or any TCMA has any fighters of worth besides one guy with a 2-4-0 record in a less than stellar talent pool feel free to post them up
I unlike you are posting the actual facts of someone I know and trained and trained with. Im sure theirs others i dont know about, but to say theirs none is obviously incorrect on your part and you sweeping assumptions and opinion mean nothing show the facts.
[/QUOTE]Quote:
As I said there are plenty of wrestlers, boxers, kickboxers, Thai boxers, bjjers, etc who I can point. All you've pointed to is one guy with a crap record from a less than stellar talent pool. Not exactly your shining star expectantly considering he's your only example.
see above. I am proving your are wrong as you said n NO ONE that does TMCA can win or is any good. yet he won in the UFC using praying mantis , as you say crap record or not AGAIN quite dodging my question POST YOUR record. if you dont have one STOP putting others down who have accomplished more than you ever could. your beginning to sound like mouth boxer/arm chair martial artist. no offence, but lighten up on the crap talking and discuss without emotion.:)
It's hard to explain... it's kind've the Bruce Lee thing. It's not necessarily that there's anything wrong with the styles I participate in, I just go where the wind blows so to speak. I like martial arts. I like all martial arts. I do find that MMA and BJJ guys are some of the most fun to hang with... even though I hold no rank in BJJ, I love to go and throw down with them. In the beginning, I did pretty much get my arse handed to me, now I hold my own. I guess I go to where I feel the fighters are. If a new guy came to town teaching TCMA and had a rep for throwing down, I'd be game - I'd show up to see what it's about. Not to be a d!ck, or to prove I'm tough, just to see what they got and to train with them if it's worth it to me. I'm not about doing the super formal heireichy thing anymore since I feel I've earned my keep as a martial artist. I'm ok being a white belt again, that's not a problem, but if I feel that someone is talking down to me - we shiai - we play seriously if I don't feel they earned the right to have that attitude.
For what it's worth, my personal "hero" in the martial arts is my Sigung Chung Ho Yin.
MightB
agreed I always check out other schools.Quote:
If a new guy came to town teaching TCMA and had a rep for throwing down, I'd be game - I'd show up to see what it's about.
I had a so called mantis guy without traceable lineage come from Cleveland advertising and teaching 8 step . I honestly asked him if he would be willing to teach me weapons as i know none. he was all gung ho then after checking my credentials and who I was he said he wouldn't know enough to teach me anything. I said you would if it were weapons again I don't know any. I felt he might be intimidated and avoided me after that. wouldn't even show me a weapon set and closed his kwoon 8 months later and moved back to Cleveland. I also have had teachers walk into my school nad challenge me. Im all for it, if you cant back up what you teach and preach then you have no business owning a school . i hate fat out fo shape teachers/shrfu's
I always consider myself a student and there's always someone whom can teach you something, this is why even after 31 years I don't feel master or pretending to be called master is in my vocabulary.Quote:
I'm ok being a white belt again, that's not a problem, but if I feel that someone is talking down to me - we shiai - we play seriously if I don't feel they earned the right to have that attitude.
this came off a lot more arrogant sounding than I meant. It's hard for me to explain what I mean by what I wrote, but basically I read a book by the guy who invented Crazy Monkey Boxing. In it he described how he treats everyone as adults with something to contribute and he acknowledges that everyone has goals, strengths, and weaknesses that they bring to the class. I like that attitude and now purposefully seek that out when I visit schools. It's like how you, ED, described the other 8step Sifu - that even if you outranked him, you respected his ability to teach you weapon arts. It's that respect that you give to other adults, that professionalism, that I'm trying to describe. If a place or instructor lacks that courtesy, that's what angers me.
you didnt come across as arrogant , no worries. you always have positive and informative things to say in your posts.
that author has the true meaning. the minute you think you cant learn from someone is the minute you rest on your laurels. and that's never a good thing
Did he beat either of them? Did he give either of them a run for their money? Did he even make it to fighting with either of them? And by. Comparison to today's fighters they are incomplete fighters and would get their rear ends handed to them.
My record is not the subject here. As I said it doesn't take a pro fighter to see that a 2-4-0 record isn't good from any time period let alone from the worse talent pool of back in the day. And again this is your ONLY example.
You're right in that it is speculation but of two fighters. One is a fighter who fights in high level full contact competition and wins on a regular basis. One is a TCMAer and has never been able to win even an amateur level full contact competition or has never competed period. You take away the rules and you honestly think the TCMAerwill magically acquire these incredible fighting powers or that the full contact fighter won't be cognizant of the fact he can be hit in the throa/eye/spine/etc?
I have taken TCMA and I currently train in a TCMA but I am fully aware of what it is good at and not good at. Some of the techniques in TCMA are good but many aren't. I don't discredit TCMA. I don't have to. It does that all by itself. Look at the empirical evidence. You and others go on about how good TCMA is for fighting but as I said not one TCMAer can you find who has beaten even ONE high level opponent in the last 20 years. Not one.
Really. Again my question remains. One. Show me one TCMAer in the past 20 years who uses TCMA for striking and grappling, without cross training, who has beaten a high level competor.
No you're trying to prove that one guy in the past 20 years with a 2-4-0 record against nobody opponents from a comparably worse talent pool, one where the highest level guys would get destroyed by today's competitors, is some kind of validation of your style and TCMA in general. He's the only example of a TCMAer even being in a high level competition you can find and he's not exactly a shining star.
There's no emotion whatsoever. Just cool, calculated assessment. And my record doesn't enter into it. I don't have to have a better record to tell you he's crap by comparison even to the low level opponents he lost to. Why don't you ask Joe Rogan about his mma record. Oh wait he doesn't have one. But both he and I have been watching the UFC and other full contact fighting competitions long enough to tell you what's what.
I didn't say no one could win using TCMA ever. I said "show me a TCMAer who has won in the past couple decades in full contact fighting against high level competition."
Now if Mr. Sutton had beaten any of the high level competitors even of the day I'd give you kudos and admit I was wrong but the only example you've given is a 2-4-0 record against terrible fighters.
Quote:
? And by. Comparison to today's fighters they are incomplete fighters and would get their rear ends handed to them.
LOl so the guys are mentioned are incomplete fighters? LOL you watch too much spike TV
Quote:
My record is not the subject here. As I said it doesn't take a pro fighter to see that a 2-4-0 record isn't good from any time period let alone from the worse talent pool of back in the day. And again this is your ONLY example.
YES it IS! you bash other people and name call without having done anything worth while yourself, this shows small character in man
Quote:
Bacon bacon bacon you just posted 2 times theres NO rules 3 times then you posted a descrption that plainly says limited. again your wrongQuote:
Vale tudo (Portuguese pronunciation: [ˈvali ˈtudu]; meaning "everything allowed", or "anything goes") are full-contact unarmed combat events, with a limited
number of rules, that became popular in Brazil during the 20th century.
thats a speculation and your personal opinion. not fact
?Quote:
You're right in that it is speculation but of two fighters. One is a fighter who fights in high level full contact competition and wins on a regular basis. One is a TCMAer and has never been able to win even an amateur level full contact competition or has never competed period. You take away the rules and you honestly think the TCMA rwill magically acquire these incredible fighting powers or that the full contact fighter won't be cognizant of the fact he can be hit in the throa/eye/spine/etc
so you want to compare athlete that is a high level fighter and competitor to a guy who doesn't fight competitively or on a regular basis? really this is your argument.?
I have seen a girl knock out a guy in a bar fight. she got a lucky shot, yes you can win in a fight anyway you can. I saw a body builder twice the size of a college kid fall to his knees when the kid hit the bodyt building in the throat with his key chain. I have sen many situations that the tougher bigger badder person doesnt always win, again the street different than the controlled ring. But please dont be so one sided you can fathom someone other than a MMA guy can win fights? come on Bacon, you cant be narrow minded.
Quote:
I have taken TCMA and I currently train in a TCMA but I am fully aware of what it is good at and not good at. Some of the techniques in TCMA are good but many aren't. I don't discredit TCMA. I don't have to. It does that all by itself. Look at the empirical evidence. You and others go on about how good TCMA is for fighting but as I said not one TCMAer can you find who has beaten even ONE high level opponent in the last 20 years. Not one.
wow paragraph of the thread. so you take TCMA but your not good enough at it to win fights? but you dont do MMA?? but yet your the cheerleader of th4 bandwagon? WTF LOL what happened to this thread??????????
never ever did I say you shouldn't cross train,, your ridiculous argument since the beginning is that TMCA doesn't work and only MMA does.Quote:
Quote:
Again my question remains. One. Show me one TCMAer in the past 20 years who uses TCMA for striking and grappling, without cross training, who has beaten a high level competitor.
I teach and I cross train so do my students I have BJJ aikdo boxing and of course kung fu anlong with wrestling coaches in my complex and we all train with each other
again I unlike you are posting the actual facts not getting my resuultds form spkie TV
. Im sure theirs others i dont know about, but to say theirs none is obviously incorrect on your part and you sweeping assumptions and opinion mean nothing show the facts.
I can only vouch for what I knwo I do not unlike you make sweeping assumption statement like NOONE, EVER, NEVER when you say these phrases they are obviously incorrect as you cant know about every fight all over the world.Quote:
Now if Mr. Sutton had beaten any of the high level competitors even of the day I'd give you kudos and admit I was wrong but the only example you've given is a 2-4-0 record against terrible fighters.
its like when the say champion of the world, or world title.... yet the guy only fights in the US its all media hype BS.
again I thin oyur watching to much ultimate fighter and spike TV.
PS iif you train TCMA and it doest work as you say why are you still training it?
Please try to communicate with some respect for each other.
-Bacon. you're being a troll and you know it.
-everyone else, stop feeding him.
That is all.