So, on season 4 of TUF when they brought Chuck Lidell in what was that whipping punch he was showing them?
We all know that CMA is useless in the ring so it couldn't have been a cop choy or sow choy right?
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So, on season 4 of TUF when they brought Chuck Lidell in what was that whipping punch he was showing them?
We all know that CMA is useless in the ring so it couldn't have been a cop choy or sow choy right?
It is also similar to the Russian boxing technique known as casting.
considering that he doesn't train CLF, I can guarantee you that it was none of the above techniques. However, that doesn't mean there isn't a similar one found in other styles. It sounds like you are describing the way some people throw an overhand.
that said, it's the training methods seen in much CMA that prompt people to say it's useless, not it's techniques. A punch is a punch.
I'm with sihung, if i throw the punch basically tthe same and work on it with pads and timing drills, what difference does it make if i'm a CMA fighter or an MMA fighter? Does CMA by default make it worse training? If that's what you think, i say go and train with a shaolin warrior-monk for a year.
The effectiveness of TCMA training methods is proven. Much of it isn't useful for the ring since you wear gloves. It’s useful for the streets though. In the ring, what good are conditioned hands if you can’t use many of the techniques they were conditioned for (such as fu jow)?
cma training methods suck?
which ones?
weak curriculums are a problem, not the methods.
many methods are exactly the same.
plus, there is no denying that mma type training is setup from the outset to attract more aggresive type people who know that there will be full contact this and that in a relatively short term.
most people in society ain't into that because they don't have that dive but, they still want to learn a martial art. Over time, intention is developed through the methods of cma that will bring about an open door to the fighting spirit that is within the student if it needs to be drawn on. sometimes they win, sometimes they lose.
all martial arts is not mere competitive fighting. there is a lot of it that has little to do with competitiveness. The methods are pretty sound. Please list those methods that are not. And if you choose to state that forms are useless, please denote why exactly you might think they are useless.
otherwise there is sparring, bag work, mitts work etc etc. and even mma has compliant patrner drills when learning a technique's application.
i think a lot of people think and say a lot of things, but not many people get right to it and thoroughly demonstrate what is lacking. Most time that the point is attempted to be proven, the example used is sub par even in mediochre practitioners views.
anyway, feel free to make the list of ineffective tcma training methods. I only have one on my list about why mma training is not always as good.
a) incidence of injury that prohibits optimum training is higher due to to much emphasis placed on contact fighting.
go! :p
i don't think seven* is saying the methods suck. he said that (other) people say they suck. and its true. ppl who are just looking in and not actually doing it often dont get it. they think its all for show. its not until ppl actually go in and train that they realize the value and effectiveness of the training in TCMA.
No, there's no point in rehashing the same debate that occurs over and over again. I get the message...there's a lot of CMA that trains poorly, or has completely omitted the martial aspects and that does suck (i.m.o.). But not everyone, and lets not forget that there's crappy mma training too...A thing that will become more and more evident over the next few years as people attempt to cash in on it.
A while back, I purchased the DVD's for the first season of TUF. On the last one, the coaches go over a few of thier favorite techniques. Chuck Liddel shows his whipping overhand. It looked just like a "cup choi" to me, common in many Southern systems. It made me smile to see a good 'ol CMA technique on the list of Chuck's bread and butter moves.:)
Chuck's a kempo guy as well as all else and naturally has copped some moves outta that to use on the circuit. Kempo borrows heavily from cma.
so , it's chuck's, but the move is in cma.
It is not a traditional western boxing strike anymore than a whipping back hand is.
mma guys, at least the internet warrior types take real offense when you point out where cma has influenced an mma fighters attributes and techs for some reason. It's like they are desperate to be something different.
fighting is fighting. there's nothing in mma that you can't get anywhere else so long as there is an open format for that type of competition.
and yes, we will see a lot worse mma garbage coming around as time goes and people capitalize on all the kips and napoleons out there.
1- Ones that instill thinking along lines like this:
2- Forms, because they have nothing to do with fighting.
3- All the schools that do no sparring.
4- All the schools that do "sparring" with no gear. Sparring with no gear means that you can't go hard enough to get halfway decent.
5- All the practitioners that never spar hard enough to incur injuries. Injuries come with the territory of becomming a good fighter.
6- Ineffective techniques such as backfists that are included in forms and drills but hardly ever actually work against skilled oppoents.
7- Instructors who never fight or spar full force, but have "reputations" of being good, most of whom have never beaten a skilled opponent in their lives.
8- The same instructors who make brainwashed students believe that ineffective techniques are useful by demonstrating them at high force on the students while the students are complying.
The punch Chuck was throwing is not a sao choi, a Sow Choi is basicaly an extended hook. The punch that he was doing is called a Fon gok or a curved 45% downward punch. Or like you said before an over hand right.
That punch is done quite frequently in CLF but I've also seen Jhon Waine do it in the movies. Who cares what it's called if set up correctly it will knock a muther out.
Once again who cares, lets discuss techniqe not wether it's CMA or MMA that's just counter productive unless youre trolling.
If the rest of this thread is going to turn into a **** a fest well we might as well kill this thread now.
Knife give me a break, come up with knew material every time it's the same thing CMA is not effective, we should all beat the tar out of one another to prove we aren't gay.
Your comments on this forum toward CMA are not objective, there more subjective,, based on your personal interest and prejudices.
OK... here are just a few common ones:
1 The backfist- seen in many CMA styles... next to worthless as a fighting technique.
2. The "windmill" flailing arms techniques- seen in Hun Ga and other CMA styles.... very low percentage and will get most practitioners KO'ed against people who know effective and efficient striking techniques.
3. Most of that jumping around like a dying bug cr@p shown on the video clip on your website... again extremely low percentage and next to worthless.
Forms are forms and fighting is fighting what does that have to do with the tech. that Chuck was throwing:rolleyes:
If you feel TCMA sucks, what are you doing on this forum?
an extended hook? I thought it struck with the forearm? Or are you referring to the trajectory.
As for the name - I agree. Like I said in the initial post, a punch is a punch. But if you ask chuck, he won't call it a fon guk. That is what prompted my response. He wasn't using good cma. He was using a good punch. period.
1. Ming Yue
2. because we can be
3. because regardless of how we feel about cma, there is some interesting stuff here
4. we don't feel cma itself sucks, just that there is a lot of BS out there. several cma guys here feel the same way.
5. in my case, I was a a cross training CMA guy when I joined here 5 years ago.
6. I am a moderator, so it's my job to be here
7. I still get something of a kick seeing people use the " too deadly" thing when it comes to CMA.
8. it's great talking to the cma guys with experience who know better and consequently don't use the "too deadly" phrase.
9. the training forum here is awesome.
10. Ming Yue.
Now you're just being facetious. That wasn't the point of that statement as you are well aware. Stop playing at being an unpleasant little troll.
As for your assertion that backfists don't work, what a complete joke. I know several martial artists from different backgrounds who've ended fights with backfists of various descriptions.
As for the windmilling stuff, it works IN CONTEXT. If you stand there and windmill then you're going to get KTFOd, but if you use all of your combat skills and attributes effectively, closing, entering, bridging then it works perfectly well.
The only backfist that will even come close to ending a fight is a spinning backfist and that is still a very low percentage tech.
Without the spin added to it, a backfist is just about the weakest and most ineffective strike there is.
"Windmilling" punches are almost as stupid, but at least they can generate power.
I've actually seen a lot of boxers (and do it myself) turn a missed jab into a backfist or hammerfist. It will land to get you the point, disorient your opponent and make them more vulnerable to more strikes, and makes them think you are faster than you really are. This doesn't look like a backfist, and isn't thrown from way back at the face (like I said it usually starts out as a jab)
Chuck is a great example of how unconventional striking can work. I personally don't think large circluar movements are good for striking, but my old tongbei sifu used to say you have to make things smaller when you are fighting, you exaderate the movement for practice purpose. The best way to see what can work is to practice hard and then to test it. I have tried to use some boxing combos that some swear by and don't land anything and I've made stuff up thats worked really good for me. Test everything then, yes I'll quote Bruce (as much as I don't think he's anything special)
"keep what is useful, dicard what is useless"
Many moves you see now in kung fu were, back in the day, staple techniques of boxing. Much of what boxers do now was, back in the day, a core part of the kung fu curriculum. They resemble each other too much for one to be branded 'incorrect'.
Having said that, today the average boxer will make short work of the average kung fu player. Different demographics train the respective arts for different reasons, and theres nothing wrong with that. I myself feel kung fu is still very valid as a fighting art, I even feel that (gasp) it contains some material that has been lost in the more sportive arts. However, if you want to make your kung fu effective, you may want to consider sound investment in a pair of boxing gloves.
My Backfist is easily as strong as my right cross.
my guess is because the glove has less padding back there. The majority of the padding is on the fist. the backfist is illegal, as is the pivot punch - a spinning backfist - and the bolo punch - which is a diagonal strike done with the bottom of the fist.
Yes I was referring to the trajectory. And did you ask Chuck where he picked it up or what it's called.
Maybe if you ever get to interview chuck that would be an interesting topic. Anyway I agree a good punch is a good punch I'm not disputing wether it's a CMA tech. I was only clarifying what it's called in CMA.