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Train for self-defense
When someone said that "I train for self-defense". What does that mean?
You can always say to "kill someone" is to "help someone to go to heaven". It doesn't matter what kind of nice words that you may use, when your "fist meets your opponent's face", your opponent is down and you are standing. Any nice words won't change the outcome.
I truly don't know "training for self-defense" can be any difference from regular MA training. Will you punch in different way or kick in different way? I don't think so. If you want your technique to work, you still have to go through develop, test, enhance, and polish stages.
What's your opinion on this?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
YouKnowWho
When someone said that "I train for self-defense". What does that mean?
You can always say to "kill someone" is to "help someone to go to heaven". It doesn't matter what kind of nice words that you may use, when your "fist meets your opponent's face", your opponent is down and you are standing. Any nice words won't change the outcome.
I truly don't know "training for self-defense" can be any difference from regular MA training. Will you punch in different way or kick in different way? I don't think so. If you want your technique to work, you still have to go through develop, test, enhance, and polish stages.
What's your opinion on this?
Self defense only requires that you survive.
Of course one way to survive is to completely obliterate the other person.
But that extreme is not necessary for just survival.
Running away is self defense.
Sometimes those that don't like training aggressive intent will say they train just self defense.
But better to train for maximum overkill. Then you can choose how much of it to apply.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
YouKnowWho
I truly don't know "training for self-defense" can be any difference from regular MA training. Will you punch in different way or kick in different way?
I think those that say they train for self defense do differently from MA training to take out the other guy.
You can turtle and wait for a chance to run, or you can go in like you are Buakaw :)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
-N-
Sometimes those that don't like training aggressive intent will say they train just self defense.
It is difficult for a passive person to beat an aggressive fighter. Self defense mentality is in conflict with martial training.
Without proper mindset it becomes bad acting.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kellen Bassette
It is difficult for a passive person to beat an aggressive fighter.
True.
But the "self defense" person doesn't need to beat the other person and win.
They just have to survive.
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'Self-defense' is a catchphrase used as a reason for training martial arts in the West since at least the 1800s. As in boxing being referred to as 'the manly art of self-defense'. The term 'art of self-defense' was applied to Asian MA (Judo/Jujutsu) when they became known in the West.
Of course, true MA were originally for dispatching other people by all means necessary. However, from a legal standpoint, you may be better off saying that you train for self-defense, if use of your skills ever results in a court case. Imagine testifying that you train to kill people or send them to heaven.
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Defending against an aggressor can be a great advantage as the brain will set off alarms for an adrenalin surge that an offensive minded enemy, especially in a wrongful situation may not be able to deploy. This has often been a great equalizer against odds.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
PalmStriker
Defending against an aggressor can be a great advantage as the brain will set off alarms for an adrenalin surge that an offensive minded enemy, especially in a wrongful situation may not be able to deploy. This has often been a great equalizer against odds.
Aggressor also has adrenalin surge. That is why "knockout game" turns into gang beating...
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Training for self-defense it the catch phrase for people who don't train realistically, but want to convince themselves they are.
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When someone says they are training for self defense, usually they mean that they are learning to fight, but that they dont fight.
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Some of those comments are true.
For those that incorporate sparring and scenario based drills, Training for "self-defense" includes NON-physical skills like visual awareness, de-escalation strategies, use of improvised weapons, etc.
I know of MMA gyms that teach these other skillsets and also say they teach "self-defense".
I knew a girl who I would NOT have put money on to protect herself. She was on the shorter side and overweight. She was in college and went to one of the buildings to work on a project after hours. She was leaving when she was accosted by a man who was about a foot taller than her. He tried to drag her into one of the rooms and she fought back. He tried striking her (giving her a big black eye in the process). While they were fighting she was able to strike him in the groin and bought enough time for her to run away.
Was she successful at "self-defense"? Yes
Would she EVER have been successful at ANY type of combat sport? No
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lucas
When someone says they are training for self defense, usually they mean that they are learning to fight, but that they dont fight.
Sometimes we say that they are learning about MA, as opposed to learning MA. And that they can't actually use it.
There are lots of people in this category. And it's fine if that's what they want.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kevin73
I knew a girl who I would NOT have put money on to protect herself. She was on the shorter side and overweight. She was in college and went to one of the buildings to work on a project after hours. She was leaving when she was accosted by a man who was about a foot taller than her. He tried to drag her into one of the rooms and she fought back. He tried striking her (giving her a big black eye in the process). While they were fighting she was able to strike him in the groin and bought enough time for her to run away.
Was she successful at "self-defense"? Yes
Would she EVER have been successful at ANY type of combat sport? No
Yep. Good example.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
-N-
Sometimes we say that they are learning about MA, as opposed to learning MA. And that they can't actually use it.
There are lots of people in this category. And it's fine if that's what they want.
That's a good way to put it....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kevin73
Some of those comments are true.
For those that incorporate sparring and scenario based drills, Training for "self-defense" includes NON-physical skills like visual awareness, de-escalation strategies, use of improvised weapons, etc.
As N said, "running away" is true self defense. This is not the intent of traditional Gong Fu. Realistically, most, (not all,) street altercations could be successfully avoided by running away; or eliminated all together by common sense.
It seems if this is the goal, training track would be a better use of your time than training Gong Fu.
Some people have a hard time accepting that Gong Fu does not, "learn to fight so we don't have too," is not, "peaceful art for self defense."
Gong Fu, in the sense of Quan, is conditioning, strengthening, desensitizing method to toughen soldiers physically and mentally, to aid their ability to kill.
The mindset of traditional Gong Fu is not compatible with self preservation tactics. The two should be kept separate to not cause confusion.
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I'm inclined to agree with Laroux and Lucas here. If you actually want to be able to "win" a street fight...your best bet is to train to fight, (the way a sport fighter would) and add concepts of dirty fighting.
If your method of training is to focus on conceptual dirty fighting, but not undergo fight training, I think your chances of success are significantly lower.
It's best if we can admit that "self defense" is western marketing gimmick. You can't sell TMA to suburban kids by telling their soccer moms you want to brainwash them to create a hardened fighter.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kellen Bassette
It's best if we can admit that "self defense" is western marketing gimmick. You can't sell TMA to suburban kids by telling their soccer moms you want to brainwash them to create a hardened fighter.
Starry eyed chi mongers won't buy it either.
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It's probably just as simple as training to defend oneself vis a vis a martial art.
To train for self defense there are many modes. They almost always involve the use of a non-compliant resisting or crowding partner.
Otherwise, everything is just training.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kellen Bassette
If you actually want to be able to "win" a street fight...your best bet is to train to fight, (the way a sport fighter would) and add concepts of dirty fighting.
If your method of training is to focus on conceptual dirty fighting, but not undergo fight training, I think your chances of success are significantly lower.
It's best if we can admit that "self defense" is western marketing gimmick. You can't sell TMA to suburban kids by telling their soccer moms you want to brainwash them to create a hardened fighter.
This is very true. The idea that you can learn to apply specific 'tricks' to survive dangerous situations is a very dangerous one.
In all probability, referring to MA as 'self-defense' was far more tasteful to upper-class Victorian-era sensibilities than 'hard, bruising, sweat-wringing training'. For the most part, these were the ones who were first exposed to Asian MA in the West.
OTOH, Kevin73 raises a good point as well. There are a lot of factors, and I've also known some people who could never have functioned effectively in a competitive sports environment who successfully 'defended' themselves. And I know of some competitive fighters who have been successful on the street, and some who were not.
'Self-defense' is awareness, to avoid and/or escape a situation. Nothing wrong or shameful in that. This should be a part of a MA education. Because too many people are simply unaware. Especially these days, when any 10 year-old can pull a trigger.
But the MAs themselves were intended to harden you for combat. In terms of actual life or death scenarios, they are the last resort when all else has failed.
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I train strictly for self-defense. I want to defend myself hahaha
No but seriously, I get in the ring with people and try to use controlled techniques when they are "dirty" and I use "ring" techniques with as much power as fits the situation.
My best friend and I were at college and we asked some local TKD guys to spar. When asked we were told they couldn't do it because they might kill us. We honestly thought they were joking...they weren't.
We train to spar and fight and we also train the dirty stuff that we use when doing different "door man" jobs.
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In defense of self, there is no such thing as "dirty" :rolleyes:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
dlcox
Self defense is studied by those who do not have time or a want of committing to studying TMA.
I concur....
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It's a fact: 95% of people who say they study martial arts for "self-defense" are paranoid weirdos.
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fear of retaliation for 400 years of slavery and oppression.
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Someone asked, "How is competition or sport testing self defense?"
Whoever like to use the term "self-defense" always like to get knife fight involved. Their argument are since sport fight doesn't deal with knife fight, sport fight is not good for self-defense.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
YouKnowWho
Someone asked, "How is competition or sport testing self defense?"
Whoever like to use the term "self-defense" always like to get knife fight involved. Their argument are since sport fight doesn't deal with knife fight, sport fight is not good for self-defense.
And that argument will actually hold some weight when they regularly engage in real "unarmed vs. knife" fights.
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If someone is going to attack you with a knife, you are better off throwing something at them and running the F away
If you are unarmed and they know what they are doing, you are likely going to DIE
The dog brothers discuss the knife when someone is experienced in "die less often".. you should note the title!!!!
The other reality is that all the effective programs in knife defense (not fool proof, but at least proven) are based upon what is labeled "SPORT FIGHTING" ... "die less often", STAB, and RED ZONE
Or, in other words, if I put on nice puffy gloves and tell you I am going to punch you in the head, and you still can't defend against it, what hope do you think you will have in a full out street assalt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
YouKnowWho
Someone asked, "How is competition or sport testing self defense?"
Whoever like to use the term "self-defense" always like to get knife fight involved. Their argument are since sport fight doesn't deal with knife fight, sport fight is not good for self-defense.
LOL. For old time's sake, I'll go there. Sort of. :D:p It's not that sport fighting isn't good for self-defense, I believe it's a necessary part of the training (i.e. sparring, not competing)...it's just that there are some useful skills for self-protection that sport fighting alone won't develop, that are also good to have. The concept of the knife explains why someone might want to fight with an extended guard or set up a wrist catch, it doesn't mean jab, cross, hook, uppercut is useless...:)
As a side note: I don't know why so many of you want to convince people with no interest in competitive fighting that they have no business in martial arts. That would destroy the industry. Do you want Gene to lose his job? :eek:
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If you train in a krav maga class or ninjutsu class, is is very different from let's say a judo class. In a ninjutsu class you will do drills with multiple attackers,lots of weapon training,use of and defense against. in your empty hand training you will focus on targets that are usually illegal in competition. in grappling you will also do techniques like small joint attacks,skin grabs throws designed to land a guy on his face..
I can compare from judo and ninjutsu class two women of about the same size and skill,which would fare better in a real life survival situation. in my opinion the ninjutsu student would. because judo has so many rules. for a small lady to throw and pin a much larger attacker just seems unlikely. where the female ninjutsu student,could use a vicious defense to stun the guy long enough to escape.
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Without getting too deep in the weeds.
Train your abilities to fight in the mind of defending yourself.
It is a viable method of preventing humiliation and in keeping yourself able.
Some training is better than no training.
You have to be willful in order to effectively defend yourself.
That is an important consideration.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
YouKnowWho
When someone said that "I train for self-defense". What does that mean?
You can always say to "kill someone" is to "help someone to go to heaven". It doesn't matter what kind of nice words that you may use, when your "fist meets your opponent's face", your opponent is down and you are standing. Any nice words won't change the outcome.
I truly don't know "training for self-defense" can be any difference from regular MA training. Will you punch in different way or kick in different way? I don't think so. If you want your technique to work, you still have to go through develop, test, enhance, and polish stages.
What's your opinion on this?
I train to learn how to stop the threat.
Take that anyway you want it to mean. In a street type confrontation, home invasion, getting mugged, etc. You must stop the threat. That is my answer.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
YouKnowWho
When someone said that "I train for self-defense". What does that mean?
You can always say to "kill someone" is to "help someone to go to heaven". It doesn't matter what kind of nice words that you may use, when your "fist meets your opponent's face", your opponent is down and you are standing. Any nice words won't change the outcome.
I truly don't know "training for self-defense" can be any difference from regular MA training. Will you punch in different way or kick in different way? I don't think so. If you want your technique to work, you still have to go through develop, test, enhance, and polish stages.
What's your opinion on this?
I would say that to train for self defense, weapons trained any day training occurs, what can be trained with resistance and gear should be, what cannot must be drilled in shadow boxing. Shadowboxing occuring regularly in which you are having to deal with potential attack from 2, 3, 4, or all angles(and drill these with people, when you can get them). I can't think of anything else. I just like training, thoughts of self defense are more a fun theoretical model to adapt training to for me.
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self-defense doesn't mean you can't beat the aggressor /attacker up or do damage to them, just means your main goal for learning how to fight is not for competition but to use it if someone tries assaulting you in real life.
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Good topic. Self-defense method is another name for MA. But they are not the same IMHO. Self-defense is an important part of MA. And there are various ways to defend ourself. So to those who want to train up self-defense skill, they should train all these ways, and apply them appropriately in different situations.
Regards,
KC
Hong Kong
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I haven't read this entire thread, so this may have been said already, but training for self defense on today's terms (differences in classes taught) Is that self defense focuses on scenario training and not forms, sparring, etc. from what I've seen. it's not necessarily something I would recommend. That being said, ANY form of martial art is training to defend yourself. My training in muay thai makes me as capable (likely moreso) than a person who is taking a "self defense" class.
Some people will argue that the difference is in the mentality. In thai boxing, I am not taught to kick the groin, to rake the eyes, to strike the throat, etc. But the mindset you develop in full contact sparring is more than sufficient and also pressure tested.
In my judo days, I helped a friend teach self defense seminars - we actually did not teach many techniques. we both agreed that teaching a lot of techniques in a seminar was pointless, because most people would not practice them after that day, anyway. We picked a handful of scenarios and addressed those. The rest of the time was spent covering the aspects of keeping yourself safe that you can put into practice immediately, with no training - awareness. Not looking like a victim, looking under your car as you walk up to it, having your keys ready before you actually get to the car or house door, how to walk when there is a wall or building nearby, etc. Things they can immediately use to make them less likely to become someone's target.
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