i was wondering if anyone practices chen style in san antonio or austin, or knows of any teachers in the area.
simpleangles
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i was wondering if anyone practices chen style in san antonio or austin, or knows of any teachers in the area.
simpleangles
I am going to be taking a Chen style Tai Chi class, and am curiouse what to expect. What is the differences between this style and the other Tai Chi styles. By the way I will also be doing Yang style with the TCM class I am starting along with the Chen style, any info on this will also be helpful. Thanks. :D
What to expect...
I can give you an idea but I highly suggest to enter the classes with a completely empty mind, willing to learn what it is your teacher is teaching without any comparison to the expecations of what you might learn.
You will probably be learning some fluid, open body movements, some fast, some slow, involving a fair bit of flexibility.
Chen style takes many years to master, as Yang Lu'chan spent 18 years learning Chen style and 2 years learning the principles of the Yang style (as some stories tell it).
If your teacher is well taught, and has spent time doing Chen style, you are fortunate and can really gain a lot from doing it. I can't say that its a great idea though to learn Chen and Yang all the time, but perhaps if you are gifted and making the dillineation between the two you will be fine.
I have heard it said that after someone learns Chen style and wishes to learn Yang style they must forget Chen style first.
Don't take any of this too literally though, and talk to your teacher as that is where you will get the best advice.
- Nexus
So who is more highly-regarded then - Chen masters or Yang masters? Altho Chen is OG, the Yang lineage seems to have had some huge names...
who did Yang LuChan learn the Yang principles from?
Let me say that differently. What I meant by saying that, the Chen style was specifically for neutralizing attacks. Yang lu'chan was not a member of the Chen family and was not taught the entire system of taijiquan, although he had spent 18 years learning. He had learnt how to neutralize to a very high level, but did not have the solid aspects presented in 'todays' Yang style.
These only took him to two years to learn, after which he left Chen village to once again stake his claim (literally) that taiji was the Grand Ultimate Fist.
So now the yang postures, are like a mountain, and one might run into such and feel as if they hit a brick wall. And chen as if you are fighting thin air with every attack you attempt.
Once again, my explanations due to little justice to experiencing this all yourself, and I still have as much if not more to learn as I did when I began!
- Nexus
I would disagree with your charcterisation of the Yang style Nexus, primarilly because Yang can be empty and Chen can be hard... it depends on your level of mastery, I think. It was an interesting view, however, and I do agree with your point about Yang and Chen being difficult to learn together.
While originex is correct that there are many big names in Yang style, I would say (somewhat paradoxically) that you're more likely to find a good Chen teacher than a good Yang teacher. The Chen lineage is still closely guarded (for better or worse) and almost all practitioners seem to be very experienced. The Yang style suffers from a glut of new age corruptions.
“a glut of new age corruptions.”
Please what dose this mean?
Why and how would you learn both at the same time?
As to what is better. If first is better or more true wouldn’t it be better to learn the style that was introduced to the chen family?
I was under the impression that the chens learned of the taiji idea from someone and modified their org style to those ideas.
bamboo leaf
The only reason I will be studying both is for the fact that Chen was the class I chose, but I am learning TCM from him and Yang style is taught as part of this course. But again, thanks for all the info. ;)
Bamboo Leaf, I just meant that the Yang style has been watered-down over the years (beginning with Yang Cheng-Fu and progressing to the community centre teacher on the corner) so that a lot of the orignal combat utility has been lost. I want to learn taiji to fight like a demon more than I want to learn how to use it to control stress or "exercise gently". I certainly don't want to learn the crap they perform in Wushu. I want the health *and* combat benefits.
Azwingchun, I reckon that if you're learning Yang taiji as part of your course it is unlikely to be the really good stuff. It takes decades to learn that, and so they're probably teaching you one of the standardised Yang wushu forms (like the Yang 24 or 48 or something else silly like that). Don't think that's all there is to Yang taiji, but you'll get better from a Chen instructor at this stage.
Dedalus,
Interesting statement. So how do you know this is so? Is something that you read, something that some one said or something that you experienced? Perhaps Yangs idea of TC manifested itself in different way.
Where I play TC I can see, met with and practice with people from many different TC styles. The people I talk with tend to talk of people who got it, regardless of TC style.
TC is like water, the style like a glass. some may have an empty glass. some may have the water in a simple clay cup.
bamboo leaf
I hope I didn't miss lead you on what kind of class I am taking, this isn't at a college and isn't like taking a semester class. I am referring to several years of study with this person, this class goes from Tai Chi to herbology. Though personally I don't know what his experience with Yang style are, I do know he has been studying Tai Chi for many years. If I am not mistaken he began his martial arts training as a young child. ;)
dedalus, taijiquan is the graduate school of the taoist arts. Much of us are in such a hurry to be a 'demon fighter' as you call it, that we skip over the elementary/highschool stuff, just so we can get to the stuff that we think looks great on the surface. This works ok at first, and can even prove to be combat effective, but will never produce a great martial artist, only a mediocre one as there is a weak foundation.
If you are with a teacher whom emphasizes the martial aspects of Taiji as well as health/meditative then you are fortunate and should stay with that teacher.
In response to whomever it was talking about Yang being both hard and soft at a level of mastery, to this I would agree although I do not agree from personal experience, only from what I have been told/shown. I have a long ways to go in my studies, but it is a daily process.
Thanks for the comments everyone, good thread so far, lets keep it that way! I am learning from it as well.
- Nexus
Yeah, fair enough guys. I certainly agree that it takes longer to learn how to fight with taiji than most other arts, and that you need to have solid foundations. I'm just adding that the teacher has to know how to turn the martial art into a fighting art, and that is a rarer quality than knowing the sequence of the forms (*if* they even know that... there are commercial schools out there that don't know the small frame, have no pauchui at all and know no weaponry besides the standardised taiji jian).
There are loads of instrucotrs out there who run big schools that have no depth, only beginners don't realise it until they've already wasted their time... well, so it goes for the most part down here. More experienced taiji artists can see it at a glance, and certainly feel it if they touch. The difference between the Old Yang Style (from Yang Lu'Chan through Yang Pan Hou and Yang Shao-Hou) and the recently standarised stuff is enormous. I don't mean for any of this to sound arrogant or to offend followers of the new syllabus - William C.C. Chen, for instance, is clearly an exceptional practitioner in the Cheng-Fu lineage, and I'm sure there are many others - I'm just trying to relay my own experience, which has been one of disappointment before finding a good teacher.
1. There are more recognized names in Yang because it is more popular. Chen style didn't really spread to N.America until a few years back and there are still only a very limited number of Chen schools.
2. It is more important to choose a good instructor than to choose a particular style. Most Yang schools are very watered down and Tai Chi is taught as a new-age exercise rather than a martial arts.
Right, William C.C. Chen, Master Jou Hwu, T.T. Liang to name just a few.
Keep in mind that CMC's 42? movement form that he taught for the last 20 years of his life is in many cases the only form that many of his students know/practice/use and is often what you see in tournaments.
The differences between YCF and YLC long form exist, but when turned into application, if done properly, both can yield good or bad practitioners.
This is why as patriot said it is much more important who you choose as a teacher than what style you choose to learn.
- Nexus
Actually, I know more Chen style masters than yang ones. The only Yang style master I heard of is Yan Zhen Duo (the standard bearer). Then again, I am a chen style player so maybe that's why.
I guess what I was really wanting to know was, does the actual fighting applications vary that much from Tai Chi style to style? Or is it more how each style is taught, or are they similar just with different forms and speed of forms?
By the way thanks for all the info you all have given. ;)
You just have to experience each style. Explaining it gives too much of a mental picture that is not very accurate to what is actually going on. What you would gain from 5 lessons in Chen style and Yang style would be much more personal understanding than I could explain in 5 pages.
- Nexus
I live in phoenix and am interested in knowing what chen style teachers are here? Do you happen to know the lineage?
His name is Dr. Peter Chow, lineage I really don't know, I really haven't got into that with him. And actually I don't think that he really advertises under martial arts or anything (at least I don't think so anyway). He is somewhat my family doctor (TCM). If you would like info I will give you his name and phone number. ;)
By the way, what area of Chandler do you live?
I live right off of Ray and Rural road. I'm pretty sure I have seen a picture of Dr. Chow on the emptyflower website. Right now I don't have a car so my training options are pretty limited, but I have found a good teacher named Philip Selmon that I study kun tao with at Mesa Community College. I do like chen tai chi very much and am interested in what lineages are around. Are you studying privately or does he have a school?
He doesn't have an actual school, it is in the back of his office. I did my first class privately, as far as the rest, I don't know. From my understanding there are a few in the Sunday's class, though it can't be many, since there isn't a lot of room. I guess I'll find out tomorrow. ;)
By the way that is Dr. Chow on the website you are speaking about.
I am a Chen stylist and in my experience I have seen Yang stylist come to my Master's school to learn Chen. They had a difficult time in the beginning and had to drop the Yang so as not to be confused. I would not recommend trying to learn both styles. Have a good day.
Thanks for your input, though I was mistaken, I will be learning Yang then Chen. They will not be done completely at the same time. ;)
What do you think about Sifu Lawrence's implication (if not outright statement) that Chen isn't a "real" style of Taiji?
http://www.xianghua.com/articles/taijiquan.asp
http://www.xianghua.com/questions/questions008.asp
There are quiet a few people that reject Chen as "real" Taiji.
;)
OTOH, he himself admits to only teaching the PRC forms and not the traditional family styes.
One reason for this I think is due to the meeting of a few Masters that decided to call their art "Internal Arts" and because there were no Chen stylists there.Quote:
We teach Yang–style Taijiquan, as standardized by the Chinese National Sports Committee.
In the end I think it is feeble attempt to make their style and what they do look better by saying "theirs is not the true xyz".
:rolleyes:
Seems like anyone wanting others to believe in what they do first must discredit something. Find a teacher and way that you can agree with and practice hard, the rest will take care of itself.
Chen style is too hard for the masses. Yang Chen Fu did a great thing making tai chi soft so that old people, children, and anyone with limited abilities could easily play along. He did more than Bruce (as that site mentioned) in terms of popularizing the style. But in my opinion, it should be called something else. I can feel it is tai chi but you can not see all the principles by observation. At least Chen style clearly shows all the principles to an observer. As to whether or not it can be applied martially, that's up to the teachers experience. But I have never met anyone that only learned Yang style and did not practice other martial arts. In my opinion, this teacher is way off base with his statements.
1.His form has Chen style very obviously incorperated into it.Quote:
There are quiet a few people that reject Chen as "real" Taiji.
OTOH, he himself admits to only teaching the PRC forms and not the traditional family styes.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We teach Yangstyle Taijiquan, as standardized by the Chinese National Sports Committee.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One reason for this I think is due to the meeting of a few Masters that decided to call their art "Internal Arts" and because there were no Chen stylists there.
In the end I think it is feeble attempt to make their style and what they do look better by saying "theirs is not the true xyz".
2.None of the forms he says he emphasises in his Yang style curriculum is Yang style, or was intended to be Yang style.
So you can't really take what this guy says in regards to labeling styles seriously. If he doesn't know the make up of his own forms, how would he know what something he doesn't practice is or isn't?
Chen Taiji is a form of Shaolin Quanfa?Quote:
Taijiquan is the creation of Yang Luchan (17991872) who learned something at Chen village and then from it created Taijiquan. Yang Luchan had three sons, two of whom lived to be adults. Both were expert at Taijiquan. One of these sons himself had three sons, one being Yang Chengfu (18831936). It was Yang Chengfu who is responsible for the transmission and popularity of Taijiquan. Taijiquan is the martial system of the Yang family. From the Yang-family Taijiquan developed directly and indirectly the other three styles of Taijiquan: Wu, Wu (Hao), and Sun. The martial art of Chen village is a form of Shaolin quanfa.
Where is he getting this from?
I think he is refering to some Shaolin Forms that were practiced at the Chen Village among other Arts.Quote:
Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Chen Taiji is a form of Shaolin Quanfa?
Where is he getting this from?
Those, AFAIK, were Sets of Red Fist (Hong Quan) and Cannon pounding.
It is true that some Chen Family members studied at the Shaolin Temple for some time, not surprising considering the distance between the two.
It is not the first time that I heard those arguments that Chen is Shaolin and not Taijiquan, have heard it from quiet a few sites and sources.
FYI, I have attached a link:
The martials Arts practide in the Chen Village
Many will already know this site.
Dunno Lawrence but what he says about the Yang lineage is true. There are only two teachers in the US that come from the genuine Yang lineage- Chu Gin Soon, and his son Vincent. They teach in Boston. The ONLY other school that I am aware of is the John Ding Academy of Tai Chi in London, England. John ding is the "official" 6th generation Lineage holder of the Yang style. One of his students, named Richard Dunn, also teaches in England, and runs one of those Yahoo discussion groups. I have taken some quotes from Richard relevant to this subject and pass them along to you all... Here's the link to his group, just know that you have to be "approved" to join it.
groups.yahoo.com/groups/energeticsart
(that's why i'm passing this stuff on here, to make it easier for you guys...) BTW- the "CMC" acronym means Cheng Man Ching, YLC-Yang Lu Chan, YCF-Yang Cheng Fu.
--------------------------
"TAI-CHI CHUAN
According to what I have heard both the Chen family and the Yang family
considered themselves to be Buddhist and the name for our art was nothing to
do with them. It was applied by (royal?) persons unknown in Beijing after
YLC started teaching there in order to deify it. The full Yin/Yang link was
only applied then as well as before that there was only a tenuous
connection. Also (this is a surmise from what I have been told) YLC was
taught the full art by Chen? (I have forgotten which) as he felt none of
that generation of Chen students were good enough and he was afraid the full
art would be lost, which happened over the next couple of generations. Also
YLC added more of the soft and internal side to the art in Beijing as the
Manchu had a fascination for Cheng San Feng and it was politically
appropriate to link to him and YLC discovered the soft side to be very
powerful. This process was extended by YBH/YCH and subsequently YCF.
Chen style had more in common with Shaolin than what we consider now to
be Tai Chi in the early days and there was little distinction placed between
soft and hard, external and internal, as we do now, especially as Shaolin
was considered in its day to understand the Yin side in its advanced
training. The process of Tai Chi 'ifying Chen came about when Chen FaKe went
to Beijing in the early part of the last century and had to adopt the name
Tai Ch Chuan for his family art in order for it to be accepted (even so
there was a lot of contention about it) and took his art more to the Yin
side accordingly.
For me the process of our arts development is a cyclic process
through birth growth corruption then decay and rebirth and this process has
happened throughout time and the Chen knowledge probably came from a source
that decayed, then went through its own decay and rebirth and perhaps we are
at the stage now where the Yang style will have to do the same, where as
Chen is at the moment having a resurgence.
Also you cannot consider Tai Chi in isolation from what is happening in the
world generally and the publics changed expectations have to be exploited
and satisfied and "dumbed down" Tai Chi wet noodle, started by CMC? will
grow whether we like it or not, but we must never lose the original art, as
we still have it, and we must retain as many variations of it as possible in
order to keep the genetic pool alive and viable, be that Chen Yang Wu Sun
and their many and infinite variations.
What we now call Tai Chi Chuan has always changed and adapted to its time
and will continue to do so as long as we don't forget the principles, but
also don't set the interpretation of them in stone as then you don't see
around the trees and your interpretation will change with your sensitivity
to it.."
--------------------
"Taijiquan Gets Its Name
When Yang Lu Chan first taught the art in Yung Nien, his art was referred to
as 'Mien Quan' or (Cotton Fist) or 'Hua Quan' (Neutralising Fist), it was
not yet called Taijiquan. Whilst teaching at the Imperial Court, Yang met
many challenges, some friendly some not. But he invariably won and in so
convincingly using his soft techniques that he gained a great reputation.
Many who frequented the imperial households would come to view his matches.
At one such gatherings at which Yang had won against several reputable
opponents. The scholar Ong Tong He was present and was so impressed by the
way Yang moved and executed his techniques and felt that his movements and
techniques expressed the physical manifestation of the principles of Taiji
(the philosophy) wrote for him a matching verse:
'Hands Holding Taiji shakes the whole world,
a chest containing ultimate skill defeats a gathering of heroes.'
Thereafter, his art was referred to as Taijiquan and the styles that sprang
from his teaching and by association with him was called Taijiquan."
-------------------------
"The
major problem is if you insist on seeing Tai-Chi Chuan as just its surface,
its physical nature, then I suppose Chen is Tai-Chi, BUT Tai-Chi is NOT Real
Tai-Chi until you have been able to internalise (turn the physical to
energetic) the art, which from what I have seen of the modern forms is next
to nobody, so they DO NOT DO TAI-CHI CHUAN, they do something else and I
wish they would stop using the name. Tai-Chi Chuan is a specific set of
skills and principles laid down in the classic principles and concepts
spoken and written of by Yang family members and disciples. The Chen family
and the PRC have hi-jacked the name for their own purposes, the PRC with the
simplified and competition forms, and Chen with a more real Shaolin type art
than the nonsense being currently pushed as Shaolin. Note for a lot of
people they would see this as a compliment, it makes Chen family art a very
effective external martial art that has many of the softer elements in it
that have been lost from the Shaolin now being taught."
OTOH. it is interesting to note that the
following site http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/ has a Chen article about Silk reeling on it.
http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/rep/...lk_reeling.htm
Quote:
Silk reeling is a subject rarely talked about in Yang family taiji. Though you don't hear much discussion of the topic under this name, actually Yang style also does contain most of the same elements elaborated as silk reeling in other styles (though the shape of the hands in Yang Chengfu style - fingers slightly curved, palms slightly extended - is different from that shown in figure 1 below).
- Jerry
IME, most people don't really care if Chen is TJQ or not, it still is a good system to learn.
"The
major problem is if you insist on seeing Tai-Chi Chuan as just its surface,
its physical nature, then I suppose Chen is Tai-Chi, BUT Tai-Chi is NOT Real
Tai-Chi until you have been able to internalise (turn the physical to
energetic) the art, which from what I have seen of the modern forms is next
to nobody, so they DO NOT DO TAI-CHI CHUAN, they do something else and I
wish they would stop using the name. Tai-Chi Chuan is a specific set of
skills and principles laid down in the classic principles and concepts
spoken and written of by Yang family members and disciples. The Chen family
and the PRC have hi-jacked the name for their own purposes, the PRC with the
simplified and competition forms, and Chen with a more real Shaolin type art
than the nonsense being currently pushed as Shaolin. Note for a lot of
people they would see this as a compliment, it makes Chen family art a very
effective external martial art that has many of the softer elements in it
that have been lost from the Shaolin now being taught."
What the hell? The whole basis of Chen Taiji is Peng, Lu, Ji and An. That's not soft?
I don't think Richard was criticising "soft", but what is, and what is not "energetic", versus what is physical. He's saying Taiji ain't Taiji unless it has "energetics", which he says Chen style is devoid of. (here comes the sh*t storm)Quote:
Originally posted by Fu-Pow
What the hell? The whole basis of Chen Taiji is Peng, Lu, Ji and An. That's not soft?
.
I have read quiet a few posts by Richard on another forum(not his).Quote:
Originally posted by QuaiJohnCain
I don't think Richard was criticising "soft", but what is, and what is not "energetic", versus what is physical. He's saying Taiji ain't Taiji unless it has "energetics", which he says Chen style is devoid of. (here comes the sh*t storm)
My question is what experience does Richard Dunn have with Chen TJQ?
How long and under whom did the study?
Just would like to know on what he is basing his statements on.
Now I am confused.
Just found this little bit of info:
http://www.taichifinder.co.uk/taichistyles.html
Doesn't sound like the guy I met online and quoted above and this guy are the same person despite sharing the name.
:confused:
"Dunno Lawrence but what he says about the Yang lineage is true. There are only two teachers in the US that come from the genuine Yang lineage- Chu Gin Soon, and his son Vincent. They teach in Boston."
Absolutely WRONG....
Yang Chengfu had more than one son...he also had several students of note.
Fu Zhongwen - argued by many to be closest to Yang Chengfu in form...had a number of students. There are at least 5 people in the USThat can trace to him.
Dong yingjie - student of Yang Chengfu - His son and grandson teach in Hawaii and they have a number of students teaching in the Continental US.
Then you get to Yang Chengfu's son - Yang Zhenduo - recently immigrated to the US along with his grandson and they have a school.
There ARE others...Such as those that learned Yang and Chen such as Gu Luxin -- and he has a number of students in the US and some learned not only chen from him but also Yang style.
They all do the same routine with much the same flavor.