My Tiger is Hungry... A forgotten Shaoln Long Fist technique?

Greetings,

In the following link is vintage footage of a demonstration of San Lu Pao Chuan. What is interesting is that the practitioner is grabbing into a fist instead of punching. I never saw this with any other performance of this particular form nor with other Shaolin Long Fist forms. I noticed this a while ago and I gave it good study before posting. It allows one to punch faster and to do so without shocking the elbow of the punching arm. Is this something that is no longer taught?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XThc67dKZRo


mickey

Can you be a little clearer what you mean and where he does it?

48 seconds in?

That is a punch?

If so, that's a pretty smart way to codify in a form the concept of being relaxed when delivering a punch.

Most people have a problem dong that.

Greetings,

Yes, at 48 seconds, and several times before and after.

Here is the late Henry Gong doing the same form and it does not feature that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yXnPM3TnJM

I was taught an upward strike with the fist using the Tiger Mouth, the top part of the standing fist. I always interpreted the technique application to be an open handed throat attack, hence the "My Tiger is Hungry..." title to this thread. I used to say, "My tiger is hungry. It eats!"


mickey

Quote:

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Originally Posted by -N-

If so, that's a pretty smart way to codify in a form the concept of being relaxed when delivering a punch.

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I agree with you on this. If this WAS a part of the Shaolin Long Fist tool box, there should be nothing wrong with bringing it back. It is really good stuff.

Memory flash: I just remembered that one of my senior brothers from long ago talked about punching as if you are trying to catch something. The guy linked does this literally. It works really well.


mickey

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mickey

I agree with you on this. If this WAS a part of the Shaolin Long Fist tool box, there should be nothing wrong with bringing it back. It is really good stuff.

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Trying to get fighters to use relaxed punching is part of the toolbox whether kung fu, boxing, or whatever.

That concept really shouldn't need to be brought back. It should already be there.

We're always telling students to relax their strikes(or throws/takedowns for that matter) but I wasn't aware of that concept being explicitly codified in a form that way. But not like I know tons of forms either.

That concept always has part of Mantis, which is derived from Long Fist and Shaolin.

To me, it's just a universal concept though.

-be old
-be student of frail weak taiwanese kung fu failure (noodle arm rubber leg taiwanese changquan # 34642)
-overanalyze tiny movement in form using scanning electron microscopy
-talk about fighting while scared of elbow being hurt while punching
-autistic thread title using vaguely orientalist terms

legit kung fu post

Quote:

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Originally Posted by -N-

Trying to get fighters to use relaxed punching is part of the toolbox whether kung fu, boxing, or whatever.

That concept really shouldn't need to be brought back. It should already be there.

We're always telling students to relax their strikes(or throws/takedowns for that matter) but I wasn't aware of that concept being explicitly codified in a form that way. But not like I know tons of forms either.

That concept always has part of Mantis, which is derived from Long Fist and Shaolin.

To me, it's just a universal concept though.

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Agreed.

It is not the concept that I am referring to. It is that technical approach I am talking about. I have not seen that done by other Shaolin Long Fist practitioners. Again, I was wondering if it was dropped in the transmission.


mickey

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mickey

It is not the concept that I am referring to. It is that technical approach I am talking about.

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Got it.

Well for technical approach when teaching or correcting forms or usage, we just rely on specifically pointing out what part to relax, where to turn, when and how to completely close the hand, how to coordinate the stepping with the turning, sinking, snapping, extension, recoil, etc.

Does any system use a training method of explicitly opening the hand to make a relaxed punch?

I'm not aware of anything to that extreme. Though probably everybody has the idea of keeping the fist relaxed until contacting. Boxers do this in their shadowboxing.

The opened hand method still can be slow and not relaxed. #11(Throat Lock) of the Praying Mantis 14 Roads is basically a choke slam takedown. Students somehow find a way to be slow and tense even when grabbing for the throat.

One thing that happens a lot with students is that they get a correction from the teacher, and they misunderstand the correction and/or overexaggerate the correct movement. Then the form gets a shows up with a different thing, and the student might say, "Sifu told me to do it this way."

The teacher shakes his head and says, "Just keep practicing..."

Greetings -N-,

I have never seen that before.

I thought Shaolin Long Fist practitioners would be stepping forward about this, by now. Maybe it is news to them.


mickey

Greetings

I visited their site at http://www.longfist.com.tw/ only to be greeted by the image of a tiger's head, mouth open, with its tongue hanging out.


mickey

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mickey

Greetings

I visited their site at http://www.longfist.com.tw/ only to be greeted by the image of a tiger's head, mouth open, with its tongue hanging out.

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Must be a secret message...

:)

Well,

I guess their tiger IS hungry, too

If the move is nothing more than a way to distinguish their lineage from others, then they accidentally stumbled upon something good that other Shaolin Long Fist practitioners might consider adopting.


mickey

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bawang

-be old
-be student of frail weak taiwanese kung fu failure (noodle arm rubber leg taiwanese changquan # 34642)
-overanalyze tiny movement in form using scanning electron microscopy
-talk about fighting while scared of elbow being hurt while punching
-autistic thread title using vaguely orientalist terms

legit kung fu post

---

Wisdom....

This is how I was taught to punch in Wing Chun. Relaxed hand, punch squeeze last 6 inches, and relax again. Soft Hard Soft. If you do it well enough your punch will make a cool snapping sound. heh

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mickey

Greetings,

In the following link is vintage footage of a demonstration of San Lu Pao Chuan. What is interesting is that the practitioner is grabbing into a fist instead of punching. I never saw this with any other performance of this particular form nor with other Shaolin Long Fist forms. I noticed this a while ago and I gave it good study before posting. It allows one to punch faster and to do so without shocking the elbow of the punching arm. Is this something that is no longer taught?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XThc67dKZRo


mickey

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mickey,
When I lived in Taiwan and trained Mantis (and Long Fist), I never saw anyone 'grab into' a punch; only having the already-closed (or partially closed) fist tighten fully prior to impact. And I never experienced, nor saw anyone, hurt their elbow while punching. You hurt the elbow if you habitually hyperextend it. Proper air punching should still leave a small amount of bend in the elbow. If it's done right, the arm can appear to fully extend, but there's still maybe an inch of bend, which isn't even noticeable. Another method is to recoil slightly without extending as far. A lot of it may be personal variation.

I don't know how practical 'grabbing into' a punch would be from an application standpoint. You cannot always gauge exactly when the moment of impact will be against a moving person (or heavy bag), if the hand begins as consciously open like at 48 seconds into the vid. Time it, angle it or distance it wrong and you'll have a busted hand. I simply don't feel it's natural in the heat of the moment.

I had a good friend in Taiwan, surnamed Kuo, who was an excellent Long Fist man; he could fight very well, and (IMO), he had the best Long Fist form I've ever seen. What set him apart to me was his precision, spirit, and the speed/power/explosiveness of his punches/strikes, kicks, and overall movement. He wasn't a big guy, looking more like an academic than a fighter, but his forearms were thick and I've felt the power he could generate. A rather large British MAist friend of ours referred to Kuo's punches as 'thunderous'. He also understood what the moves were for. He never grabbed into a punch like in the vid.

Despite his outstanding form, he didn't place forms on a pedestal like many practitioners did, which is ironic in a way. He also hated when people complimented his form; it made him self-conscious because he preferred application and sparring. I tend to think his fighting carried over into his form, not the other way around. A pity he never became a teacher, and I do know he stopped practicing a long time ago, and became a university professor in Taipei.

*edit to add:
I only mentioned Kuo because there's a fine line between (1), power and gracefulness, and (2), becoming dancey-prancey. Especially in some Long Fist styles. The prancey types tend to lack a combative focus in training and be almost exclusively forms-oriented. There is also usually little to no understanding of application principles. This can come across with a lack of spirit and 'urgency' when they perform, almost like moving by rote, or sleepwalking through it.

BTW, Henry Gong's rendition of that set was excellent. Totally different level from the first vid.