Letter to Chan family from Hung Sing CLF Master

I am posting this letter at my Master's request. He has made several unsuccessful attempts to resolve the issue regarding Chen Yong Fa's claim of being "keeper of the style" of Choy Lee Fut. It is an issue that has upset many elders within the Hung Sing CLF community. My Sifu now wishes that everyone know the truth:


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Mr. Chen,
I am disappointed that we have not been able to resolve our disagreement regarding your claims of being the Jerng Mun of Choy Lee Fut. Although my student (Hiram) expressed, on my behalf, our contention that there is NO Keeper of the Style, you have not made any modifications to your website.

I have seen with my own eyes that your site states you are "considered to be the present day Jerng mun yun (Keeper of the style)."

If you are going to make such a claim, please clarify your position as Keeper of the Chan branch of Choy Lee Fut, or as Keeper of the King Mui branch. You are not recognized by Fatshan Hung Sing as the Keeper of Choy Lee Fut.

I have been in contact with elders of the King Mui branch and they've confirmed that there is NO Jerng Mun in Choy Lee Fut. I've spoken with the Canton Athletic association, and they agree as well.

I also recently spoke with Mr. Leung Lai Chiu. His mother was your father's classmate and he is your kung fu brother. He ALSO confirmed that there is NO "present day Jerng mun yun". He is completely opposed to your claims. Again, I implore you to please make the appropriate changes on your webpage in order to avoid any more trouble. If you would like to speak with Leung Lai Chiu his telephone is (86)1390-xxx-xxxx.

If you would like to speak with me, feel free to contact me at your earliest convenience. I am eager to put this matter to rest once and for all.


Regards,
Chan Kam Fai

DId you send this letter to Sydney? I don't think master Chen reads this forum.
HIram, when and where you claim that there is no JMY. Did you tell it in a forum or in person in Sydney.
If its your opinion why others must obey and change what they believe.
Are you the owner of the truth?.
Everybody coan believe whatever they want, if you think or your sifu that there is no JMY it's OK, but why you make obbey others in order to believe what you believe.
In what affects you that Chan family have a Jern Mun Yan?.
Your sifu claims that he spread CLf over LAtinAmerica. I'm in latinamerica and never haver heard any word of your sifu, need I send him a letter to make him clarify the issue that he only teachs to Venezuela army? I think that this things are coming to a level of stupidity.

chan i live in CT to.. its a really ****ty place for kung fu huh??

anyway nice to see someone whos actually near me..let alone in the same place i mean my god this forum is full of brits and for the most part anon people..

so where you live in CT? id like to talk to you some day maybe next fall?(sounds awkward but im busy this summer)

n e way nice to see someone from CT

Well. I think that's just ridiculous, but.. here's some facts. The Chan family Choy lee fut practitioners and sifus never talk about Chan family choy lee fut. If you ask anyone, they'll say they practise choy lee fut, not Chan family choy lee fut. If someone wants to know more, they'll say, they're from the king mui branch. So when Master Chen's disciples call him Jerng mun yun, does it mean he's the Jerng mun yun of all branches? No. No one thinks so. Where did you get that idea? from "keeper of the STYLE"? Did it ever occur to you that the STYLE might refer to Chan family branch of choy lee fut?

Don't take these thing the wrong way deliberately. Think about Jerng mun yun as a title like sifu or sigung. If your sifu says "Hi, I'm Sifu Chan Kam Fai" on his website, I don't write an open letter to the forums about how he's not my sifu. Get the idea?


premier

But yeah. I agree it could be explained a bit more clearly, but it doesn't change the fact that you're going over the board with this.


premier

The subject of Chen Yong Fa being the Jun Mun of CLF was discussed on KFO sometime ago and I think it was stated that he was recognised as the Jun Mun of his own branch. I don’t think anyone has any argument with that.

premier, because of this dispute and recent revelations the whole jeong mun yan is fueled by this. the chan clan came out strong about direct blood lineage and that chan heung was the founder of clf, and since chan yong fa is family, his website stating that he is the present day jeong mun yan of clf made a whole lot of people mad. to some that was a muscle move, and the other branches know their history and are equally as strong or stronger.

their are two versions of clf history. the chan which favors chan heung, and jeong yim's branch both hung sing and buk sing believe. chan yong fa is the chan family jeong mun yan. grandmaster kwan mun keng is the jeong moon yan of the singapore hung sing kwoon. and grandmaster jew tien loong is the current jeong mun yan of the 1st american hung sing kwoon est 1939 (officially). prof lau bun has exclusive right to hierarchy in america due to being the first clf man to establish a school in usa. no i don' know who would be the buk sing jeong mun yan, most likely lun chee.

so to you this issue may not mean anything to you but it does to a whole bunch of people.

frank

Here's a serious question? How can you have a Jeong Yun Man of Hung Sing CLF? I mean the Chan Family Jeong Yun Man makes more sense to me because Chen Yong Fa is part of a family or village. So he is the authority for that particular group. His family members or village members apparently taught him almost all that they new to pass it on to future generations. He is the Jeong Yun Man in the same way that Chen Xiaowang is the Jeong Yun Man of Chen Taiji in Chenjiagou. Not necessarily for all Chen Taiji but for that particular group.

But the as far as the Hung Sing and Baksing branches it doesn't seem to make much sense. The practioners are so spread out and separated how could you give any one elder this status? Do you get what I'm saying. The Chan Family branch seems much more close knit so this designation would be more appropriate, plus you have the blood line.

comments.

Fu Pow:

I agree totally its just like using the term grandmaster, it real means nothing to me. I could care less what someone calls themself, bottom line is is your kung fu good, do you still keep in shape and train or do you just talk about what generation or lineage you are from.

You can be the jeong yan mun of your own school, however I think it carries very little weight with anyone outside of that school.

I think the problem that we CLF people are having right now is there is way too much politics and not enough emphasis placed on promoting our great art. All of this who outranks who and what history you believe is really not that important. I believe what I want to believe and you are entitled to believe what you want. I won't force my opinions down your throat and I expect the same.

There are too many conflicting dates and holes in all of the stories out there to ever prove 100% that either side is right. So like religion follow what your sifu teaches you.

Lets get on with this sh!t and talk productively about CLF.

Peace.

I can't said it better CLFnole.
The great looser of all this discussions with insults is CLF. Who in the world will send their child or choose this style if you can see the minimun respect and tolerance.

Agreed! I for one am sick and tired of the pathetic arguing. Come on folks, if your gung fu is good and in line with Choy Li Fut training then lets promote it! I don't see Wing Chun and Hung Gar masters wasting their time bickering over lineage issues. I see them training hard and teaching their students to become proficient good martial artists. Thats the best way to go. Theories and debates over whether the Green Grass monk actually existed are silly. We need to promote CLF!

Good post mixxalot.

;)

There have been some responses and comments since my Sifu, Chan Kam Fai, made the public statement concerning the position of the Hung Sing Branch on the Jerng Mun Yun issue. I realize some clarifications need to be made.

I will not address each one of you directly, instead, I will respond to the issues raised.


Was this letter sent to Master Chen?

Chen is well aware of the dissatisfaction within the CLF community on his claim to be the Jerng Mun Yun of CLF style. We have no problem with him just claiming to be the "Keeper of the Style" within his own clan, but to say he is the Keeper of all CLF is another story. All we ask is for him to be clear in his own representation and not to confuse outsiders.


There are comments on who is my sifu Chan Kam Fai.
Well. If you really want to know about my sifu, I will suggest you go ask your own elders. Also, feel free to peruse our website at your leisure.


Some of you suggest that instead of this constant arguing, there should be an annual meeting/conference among all the CLF elders and students.

Do you know that the Hung Sing and the Buk Sing have this type of gathering every year already? Maybe you can check with your sifu on when is the next gathering, so that you can come and see. The CLF community is very close-knit.


It is not our intention to come on to this forum to argue. This letter is meant to show the position of the Hung Sing branch on this issue. A lot of you say that it is freedom of speech and it is your right to express your own opinion.
However, you should also respect our words. The right to present a different point of view in an open forum is everyone's right and not yours exclusively.

Finally, we have presented our statement and the position of the Hung Sing branch.
We will not respond to anyone that is not in a position to speak ON BEHALF of the Chen Yong Fa clan.


Respectfully,
Hiram D. Viera

Are your school and Frank McCarthy's Hung Sing school affiliated?

Are you both the same organisation?

McCarthy claims that his school is the oldest and most established Hung Sing in America, yet you call your school American Hung Sing.

I'm not stirring, I'm genuinely interested.

Do you consider Jew Long the JMY of Hung Sing as Frank McCarthy does?

i've noticed that some of you people in here 'martial artist' full of bravado and 'martial virtue' say that this is a place for people to spaek their minds because it is a public forum, however when your opinion is not being matched you immediately jump all over the 'offending' person, as in Hiram's case. He has been man enough to put who he is and where he is in the open and you guys 'the faceless posse' harass and berate him every chance you get. tell us who you are and what are your credentials.

I think that Chan Kam Fai would �gtechnically�h be under Grandmaster Salvatera since Chan Kam Fai is new to America and Lau Bun established Hung Sing in America many years ago. By that respect Chan Kam Fai should pay respect to Grandmaster Salvatera, as �grank�h and �grespect�h have a lot of meaning in the Chinese Martial Arts.

My name is available to anyone, who wants it bad enough to send me a private message. The reason I go anonymous is that I don't want these discussions to pop up when some inserts my name in a search engine. Simple data security =)

I don't have any issues with Hiram. I replied because I feel he and his sifu have misundertood the jerng mun yun thing. So far I haven't seen anyone claiming Master Chen to be "the Keeper of all CLF". Do you have an article or website that says so?


premier

Hiram:

What I critic in my response to your letter is the tone( el tono, si por tu apellido supongo que hablas castellano). It was not an opinion, you were mandating other to do something.
I don´t express that I never heard of your in a tone of who is this guy?. I tried to put in example that your website said that your sifu spread CLF in Southamerica, but it was principally in Venezuela army, so in the same logic of you of deterministic information southamerican people could ask him to delete southamerica and put only venezuela, country placed in southamerica.
I don't have any problem if you believe in what do you want to believe and you defend it, but obviously not just in CLF you always must communicate with tolerance and respect to others not in your faith. And your letter was lack of tolerance and more than a letter in look like a mandatory.
Si quieres hablar en español para mi es mejor, mi ingles es un poco enredado.
Paz

loudmouth,

i'll clear this up for you again. hirams hung sing lineage is from fut san, his sifu has opened up in the usa. since he is h.s. they are in america that doesn't make him our hung sing lineage. our direct lines are parallel, but not the same. his sifu and my sifu are same level.

and one more time, lau buns clf was americanized and that's why we call it american hung sing. but not to pull rank but did have the name long before any hung sing today.

our school is 64 yrs old offically unofficially (1920's) it is more than 70 yrs old because prof lau bun only officially opened to the public in 1939. he was teaching in mexico, l.a. and lastly in san francisco.

you are so full of anger. try learning tai chi

What makes you think I'm full of anger, Frank?

Am I the one cursing and swearing all over the internet?

That reply above was the first sensible, grown-up sounding response from you in weeks! If you want to read anger into the things I have asked, then that says a lot more about you than it does about me.

The reason I asked is because on Hiram's website his history puts Chan Heung as the founder of CLF. I thought your school was trying to refute this. So I asked why you spoke of him like a brother and why you both had the same name for your schools, yet your history is diametrically opposed.

I'm not angry, Frank. I have no agenda. In fact, I'm usually laughing as I read these forums and watch you and others desperately trying to change history. However, the questions I'm asking are genuine and sincere.

If you want to try to bend history to suit your ego and needs and if you want to convince the whole MA community to accept your version of things (and you're not the first that's tried this don't forget) then don't expect to simply state your own "facts" and have everybody instantly believe them.

Now see if you can respond to this post without insultin me with swear words, calling me an internet warrior or asking who I am. How about you just address the issues raised and see if you can keep your anger and venom in check.

i'll ease off on you this time. because i feel you may be misguided.

i was asked many years ago, not to rock the choy lee fut boat by other elders. but the last straw is broken, the camels back must break.

you claim we try to bend the truth, but the truth is the chan clan is losing their hold of clf as their baby, and the real parents of clf are stepping forward to set the story straight. remember the pen is mightier than the sword and you the chan had the pen for far too long. the real clf history whether it is meshed with chan heung or solely a jeong yim endeavor, the real story will be told.
as far as i know, it will not favor the chan clan.

so don't fight against your clf brothers from hung and buk sing families, just privately try to prove us wrong. and when you do bring it to light. that is what we are doing. just bringing things to light.

frank

Let me get this straight.

Firstly you came out and said that Chan Heung was not the sole founder of CLF and that he had learned some things from Jeong Yim.

Then you said that in fact Jeong Yim and Chan Heung created CLF together based on what JY had learned from Ching Cho (the fictitious character from a novel).

Then you said that actually, Jeong Yim founded CLF all by himself and Chan Heung was simply one of his teachers prior to the fictitious Ching Cho. (Obviously, you don't believe him to be fictitious, even though you cannot prove his existence).

And now, you've got a new version of the story. In fact, Jeong Yim founded CLF and taught gung fu to Chan Heung! Chan Heung didn't know gung fu at all and was actually just JY's calligraphy and literature teacher, hence the title Sifu.

So all this bringing stuff to light looks different in different lights? Why keep changing your story? What are you trying to protect? If you have some great insight and proof of what you would like to be accepted as the history of CLF, why not present it? What are you waiting for? I'm sure that all the CLF people in the world, be they Hung, Buk or Chan, would love to hear the verifiable proof of their combined history.

However, there's still a question from some time ago that you've never answered, and now that question is all the more relevant.

You're saying that Chan Heung never knew gung fu originally and what he did learn, he learned from Jeong Yim. In that case, why is it that the Hung Sing and the Buk Sing lack the internal forms and the 18 dummy forms, not to mention a number of fist and lion dance forms, that only the Chan family have? Could it be that Chan Heung didn't teach those things to Jeong Yim?

Why don't you have those forms, Frank?

Disclaimer:
I am not angry. I am asking a genuine question to which I would like a genuine answer, without all the posturing, threats and swearing that so often accompany your posts.

By the way, as for proving you wrong, what is there to prove?

There is the internationally accepted history of CLF, that it was founded by Chan Heung. You are trying to change that accepted history, so it is up to you to prove your claims.

Hmmm. Resounding silence once again.

Regarding the issue of Master Chen Yong Fa and the title of Jerng Mun Yun, there is a statement on the official Chen Family CLF website on the Homepage and in the forums.

www.clfma.com

Peace

I have a question.

If Chen Yong Fa is recognised as the Jeung Mun Yun of Chen Family CLF, and taking into account the fact that Chan Heung founded CLF, and taking into account the fact that Chen Yong Fa is Chan Heng's great great grandson, doesn't that make him the JMY of CLF and the other people just JMY of their respective branches?

After all, those branches broke away after the founding of CLF.

I'm not being deliberately provocative here, I'm genuinely curoius.

Wu Lung? Anyone?

To Yik-Wah-Tik,

"Chan Heung didn't know gung fu at all and was actually just JY's calligraphy and literature teacher, hence the title Sifu."

According to Chinese tradition, the title for a master of skills (like martial arts or handicraft) is Shifu/Sifu. A teacher of the civil arts like calligraphy is called Laoshi/Losi. So, if Jeong Yim called Chan Heung "Sifu", than he must have learned martial arts from Chan Heung instead of calligraphy and literature.

To Serpent,

"If Chen Yong Fa is recognised as the Jeung Mun Yun of Chen Family CLF, and taking into account the fact that Chan Heung founded CLF, and taking into account the fact that Chen Yong Fa is Chan Heng's great great grandson, doesn't that make him the JMY of CLF and the other people just JMY of their respective branches?"

I will TRY to answer this question.

In Chinese martial arts, we have the following terms:

PAI: The style of martial arts

The PAI can consist of several ZONG'S...

ZONG: clan, faction, school

In our case, Choy Lee Fut is the style, while Hungsing, Baksing, Chan Family etc. form the different factions. Each faction is an independent group with their own curriculum and lineage, all having gained respect and recognition in the martial arts world. Chen Yong Fa being the Cheungmoonyan (or Cheungmoon for short) of the Chen family CLF does not effect the other factions, this is what is called in Mandarin: Tong Pai butong Zong = We are from the same style but we belong to different factions. A good example would be Chen Xiaowang, who is the Cheungmoon of Chen Taiji, but he is not considered the Supreme Cheungmoon of Taiji because that would automatically give him leadership over all the other taiji factions like Yang, Wu2, Wu3 and Sun, the Cheungmoonyan's of these styles will then all be demoted to "lesser Cheungmoon's".

But of course I am not in the position to determine who is or should be the Cheungmoonyan of CLF. On their website, the Chen family already said that the term Cheungmoon only refers to their own faction. So, everything is OK, right?

Back up a bit Frank. You said that Chan Kam Fai�fs Sifu and your Sifu are same level? Chui Kwong Yuen is 4th gen. And I believe that your Sifu Salvatera is 5th gen. You can see the line on Master Chan�fs site. And also just to mention Yeun Hai is also in the line to Chui Kwong Yeun, so your school is a little closer than you think. Cheers.

Kei Lun