5 Element Palm in Pak Mei
Hi there guys,
It's been a long time since I've posted anything on this forum.
However I have reading some of the posts that have been put on here.
Purely out of interest, who knows or has heard of this: "5 Element Palm form - Ng Hsing Mor Kiew Kuen" in the Pak Mei arts.
Like I said I've seen it floated around on here in various posts, and would be interested in anyone who could shed some light on this subject.
I believe that those of us in the Pak Mei Pai, know that the advanced forms are Sup Baa Mor Kiew Kuen & Man Fu Chut Lam. I'm just interested in finding out more information on this other form...
I look forward to hearing from some of you.
Re: Ng Hsing Mor Kiew / Sau
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pakmei
[B]Well from my understanding of reading the various couplets, poems / songs of Pak Mei Pai, that my Sifu has given me.
The Pak Mei practitioners will know that practising the Tun To Fau Chum is for developing the iron shirt / body and in particular around the ribs.... hence the expanding and compressing of the ribcage when prastising.
So from this the Tun To Fau Chum, is cultivating to 4 internal powers of Pak Mei in accordance with the Lohk Geng (6 powers of the body).
To my mind then the "Ng Hsing Mor Kiew / Sau (Kuen)" is taking the internal stage of Pak Mei further. Apparently the Preist / Monk PAK MEI himself, was reputed for having the "Golden Bell Cover".
So would it be by fusing the 5 elements of the body as one (Jing, Qi, Jin Ye, Xue, Shen - Essence, Energy, Body Fluids, Blood & Spirit) by various Taoist / Buddhist Breathing exercises, this "Ng Hsing Mor Kiew / Sau (Kuen)" is strengthening the Yang Fu (Internal Organs) to be able to withstand strikes executed with internal power.
Pak mei-
Actually, all the chinese martial arts are made within the five elements theory. Ask any chinese martial artist or very knowledgeable person. They will tell you all the martial arts are made within the theory of five elemnts.
Five elements doesn't belongs to pak mei family only. It also belongs to Southern Tong long. It also belongs to Choy Lay Fat.
The origin of all martial arts are Taoist. Thus, the theory of taoist applies to all chinese martial arts. The buddhist is not the orignator of chinese martial arts.
If you search in Yahoo.com, about five elements theory. The japanese karate also has their version of five elements theory. The japanese karate is a derivative of chinese martial arts. Thus, japanese karate also agrees with five elements and tao of yin and yang.
It is the expression of five elements, which is different than all of us. If there is a chinese martial artist here in this forum. I am sure he will agree.
Existence of form in Vietnamese lineage
The 5 elements/animals form is present in vietnamese lineage of Pei Mei. It comes after Tiger exits forest. (There are other forms as well that come after Tiger Exits forest).
I have not learnt it or seen it.
As far as I can tell from my research and what I have been told, this form has existed for a long time in PM at least since 1930s as Tsang Hu Bac is said to have practiced it when he left CLC in 1931 and came to Vietnam.
I cannot give any hard evidence for 100% certainty. Some students of CLC did travel to Vietnam between 1930s and 1950s and may have brought it with them. So until this doubt is resolved I remain at 80% certainty that it is authentic form.
However I would go against the theory written here concerning interpretation relating to iron bell.
As previous threads have shown, I to have been taught that 5 elements theory is just a common structure of older Southern schools and is a useful "manual" to pull together allt he threads of any Southern style. Many of these schools' most advanced forms deal with a name of 5 elements.
I would also agree that the reference to 5 animals/elements on Pei Mei insignia is proof enough that this theory was integrated into PM, and that it shows the connection of PM to both Taoist traditions (as many martial arts have) and to the Shaolin tradition.
Regards,
EAZ
Re: Existence of form in Vietnamese lineage
I would also agree that the reference to 5 animals/elements on Pei Mei insignia is proof enough that this theory was integrated into PM, and that it shows the connection of PM to both Taoist traditions (as many martial arts have) and to the Shaolin tradition.
Regards,
EAZ [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree with you. However, you shouldn't say five animals. It will be a joke,if you say it to some chinese medical and martial arts practitioner. There are no five animals in chinese medicine. There is certainly no five animals in martial arts.
Note: I am not chanllege you. I am just telling you something from my good intention.
All martial arts are developed based on five elements theory.
There are only five important angle in fighting. When you cover all five angle. You are impenetrable. This is what Pak mei 's five elements means. It is all self-expression. Every martial arts have differnet interpretation of covering up all five angles.
5 elements link with 5 animals
I am intrigued that no one here has been taught that there is a link between the two.
We all agree that 5 elements is root of Taoist knowledge. (see Pak Mei Students classic correspondences between colours organs weather ets as outlined in commentary in Yi King.
We all agree that martial arts is laced with Taoist theory hence 5 elements.
Is is not possible to infer that 5 animals of Shaolin an addition or mix of one theory/ tradition into 5 elements classical taosit theory?
It would be an incredible coicidence that there are 5 animals in Shaolin and 5 elements that have nothing to do with eachother, no?
Without getting into all the detail I have been taught, I outline the following for your consideration:
There is theory of mutation creation descrtruction in 5 animals based on corresponding elements.
The animals also are parralleled to big yang, small yang, neutral, small yin and big yin.
Theory of fighting is integrated rather sealessly into this.
Why is it that PM is Tiger and Leopard specialty, Wing Chun Crane Snake etc....and that these animals corresponds to stances attitudes and ways of fighting COMPLETELY correhent with these two fighting systems (and other styles too but I do not know enough about them )?
I really am surprised again that no one else here considers there is a link between the two. It is so coherent, so structured in the way I have been taught. I will not debate this though any longer and quietly slide into the mists of anonymity instead of confronting potentially headon visions.
That being said I do not think the theories here are exclusive. It is possible to have more than one interpretation of 5 elements such as the one mentioned by Pak Mei student
(I am not disputing however the exact terminology of the PM form either animal or element)
EAZ
If it is only that straight forward...
Hi Eaz
How are things. Hope all are well with you. :) If I may:
"5 elements link with 5 animals
I am intrigued that no one here has been taught that there is a link between the two."
As I have said before, there need not be a link for many reasons. The biggest one is that Taoist 5ET is a globle worldview with distinct Chinese flavor. Shaolin 5 animals is a view on the human body, mind and spirit with a crossed cultural model. You could link them together but it is hard to obtain a perfect fit.
"We all agree that 5 elements is root of Taoist knowledge. (see Pak Mei Students classic correspondences between colours organs weather ets as outlined in commentary in Yi King."
the I Ching is certainly a major work on Chinese worldview.
"We all agree that martial arts is laced with Taoist theory hence 5 elements.
Is is not possible to infer that 5 animals of Shaolin an addition or mix of one theory/ tradition into 5 elements classical taosit theory?"
As outline above, they are 2 separate models. The 5ET with the correspondences between things are not done liberally. This is the major misconception about the correspondences. There are well found reasons to do the correspondences and in certain cases calculations are used to make certain the associations are logical and correct. There are works available on these matters. You will have to found them and work with them.
"It would be an incredible coicidence that there are 5 animals in Shaolin and 5 elements that have nothing to do with eachother, no?"
:) Sorry, I afraid I have no answer for this one. Other than to say, it is just that incredible.
"Without getting into all the detail I have been taught, I outline the following for your consideration:
There is theory of mutation creation descrtruction in 5 animals based on corresponding elements."
Could you give us a overview of why certain animals associate certain elements. What is the reason to support that, etc. Taoist own elements and animals are base on the same worldview. They also fit in either the marcocosmos and microcosmos models. Can the Shaolin 5 animals model do that?
"The animals also are parralleled to big yang, small yang, neutral, small yin and big yin."
IMHO, and with all due respect, this is not classical I Ching understanding. It has been modified to meet the need of associating the Shaolin 5 animals to the 5 elements. I would like to know which classical work of both Taosits or Confucians has this model.
"Theory of fighting is integrated rather sealessly into this. "
no comment as it links to the above question.
"Why is it that PM is Tiger and Leopard specialty, Wing Chun Crane Snake etc....and that these animals corresponds to stances attitudes and ways of fighting COMPLETELY correhent with these two fighting systems (and other styles too but I do not know enough about them )? "
Tiger and leopard as I have said before "These animals express the idea of power/strength (of fear and ferocity) as a vehicle of the devine." ie Gang Ging. beside the physical attributes.
"I really am surprised again that no one else here considers there is a link between the two. It is so coherent, so structured in the way I have been taught. I will not debate this though any longer and quietly slide into the mists of anonymity instead of confronting potentially headon visions."
Structured, yes, Coherent, may be. But they really are 2 seperate models IMHO.
"That being said I do not think the theories here are exclusive. It is possible to have more than one interpretation of 5 elements such as the one mentioned by Pak Mei student "
That definitely is the case for there exists 2 different diagrams of 5 elements which express some different approaches to their structures and functions.
"(I am not disputing however the exact terminology of the PM form either animal or element) "
Me neither. Just some food for thoughts. Thanks for the input. Very interesting indeed. :)
FT,
Yes, it has been awhile. I am preoccupied with the mantis world. Lots of stuff to work with lately. Thanks for asking. How about yourself? I believe there is at least one Taiji Mantis school in Australia but I have not come into contact with any of them yet. BTW, congratulations on you successful website which includes a discussion forum.
Take care
Regards
Mantis108
Re: If it is only that straight forward...
Mantis108- I have nothing to say, except you are doing my job. Our view is very close.
Ken Lui- I am using chinese word 2000 and pen power.
Mantis 108 and Cannonfist
I too do not have the time to go over the theorerical and practical structure relating to 5 animals and elements and combat.
Let us jsut agree then that fundamental internal structure of analysis of martial arts remains taoist 5 elements, and that 5 animals is a latter addition, much more limited in scope and application. However the field of application IS martial arts.
With regards to application of cycle of destruction/creation, it is a great simplification to say that X animal beats y animal, as we all know what makes you win in combat is, in order of importance:
intention
power
technics
I understand you are well versed in chinese philosophy, esoteric litterature and possibly medicine. I risk saying to you, although I could be putting my foot in my mouth, that to concentrate t oo exclusively on the abstract or internal parts of martial arts often appears to lead to putting much less emphesis on the translation of these Chinese principles to practical martial arts mastery.
Not accusing you of being new age or anything horrendous like that but often these types of people have built up big intellectual constructs that cannot be put into practice in the real world.
I do not have the time now to go over it all. But maybe if you browse through previous threads one in particular I started on 5 animals, it might sharpen your interest.
(I am familiar with 2 different triagrams of 5 elements, I have been taught this during medecine classes of my sifu as well).
Cannonfist: Can your sifu give you any more information regarding the ifferences in practice in Vietnam, notably on this subject of 5 animals, what lineages do things different ?
EAZ