I have seen many schools that won't let you join unless you coverted into their religion. Do you think this is fair and why? I don't think it's fair at all.
I have seen many schools that won't let you join unless you coverted into their religion. Do you think this is fair and why? I don't think it's fair at all.
Often it has to do with a peculiar tendancy of religions to preach tolerance and peace among thier own members, but outsiders, well THEY ARE JUST NO GOOD ARE THEY.
Both the Old Testament / Torah and the Koran are filled with admoishments against non-beleivers or stories about mass killing of non-beleivers by the 'righteous'.
Religions tend to be political movements first, spiritual matters second. It is only in the secularized west that we have gotten away from this sticky fact.
From what I have read (and I am still finding texts on Zoastrianism, so I cannot speak to it) out of the major religous streams that have survived to this day, only Jainism and Buddhism do not espouse some sort of militancy against non-beleivers in thier religous texts. (Although hinduism, the religion at the 'root' of those two has the Bhagavad-Gita, which is essentially a war epic about the virtues of dispationate behavior.)
Now, this is only a hobby of mine, so if someone can correct me, please do so.
Also note - I am not seeking to offend anybody here. But I've read the religous texts and it's all right there on the page, not too far from admonishments about 'changing' or 'not following' the religion properly. Them's the apples. They often get overlooked.
Oh, and I'm not much of a joiner. There are plenty of martial arts that don't require me to acquire more imaginary friends.
Monekyslap, good post.
Stated much more straight to the point of the matter than my own spew would of been.
i would pretend.
if i ever wanted to quit i would be creative in commiting the worst legal herasy before all of them.
then i'd rape the teachers puppy.
black jack . .. yeah his was ok, but mine was better.
"There are plenty of martial arts that don't require me to acquire more imaginary friends."
Was good up until this point. If you're trying not to offend people you probably shouldn't use wording like that as it sneakily enforces your "spiritual" beliefs upon them. ;)
Regardless what I think of the issue, there are MANY intelligent and logical philosophers, doctors, scientists, etc. who make quite convincing arguments about the possibility of those "imaginary friends." Just because someone is based in reality does not mean they are void of religious thinking. Just my 2 cents.
But I don't think ANY martial art has the right to have say what religion if any it's practitioners follow (unless of course it's something obviously harmful... going out and killing people ritually or something :D )
Ryu
IMHO if they make you convert to learn kung fu they basicly suck, leave them ****ers. Throw **** on their front door.
That counts high-pressured organization, it is too dangerous to join, too much like a cult.Quote:
Originally posted by roughnready
I have seen many schools that won't let you join unless you coverted into their religion. Do you think this is fair and why? I don't think it's fair at all.
RYU - the imaginary friend crack goes back to my college days when the fundamentalists were all over campus. See, you can read it two ways 'hey - he thinks my religion is imaginary' or 'yeah,yeah THOSE guys have the imaginary god(s)'.
Someday I'll tell the tale of how I created the illusion that there was a huge fundamentalist aryanist religous revival on campus.
"Heimdall has been struck by a misseltoe arrow and the serpent of midgard is lose. Ragnarok is near! Come to our prayer meeting and fencing practice in room 842."
Of course the rooms on the eigth floor on each building (notice I did not say which building) all stopped before 42. Heh heh.
Also to Ryu. Note that I did not discount spiritual beleifs. Just what people do with them.
Frankly, I find most of the worlds religions really scary, as there are a lot of things tucked in there that 'give' the 'beleivers' the right or duty to abuse or kill non-beleivers.
These aspects may be downplayed in the modern day, but the basic programming is written into the software. or so to speak.
Frankly, I am oppossed to anyone telling me what I should beleive or practice, and religions that feel the need to subject people of other religions should go pound sand.
So there, now you made me tell off three billion people. :D
I have no problems with ordained Monks who historically practice a certain art teaching their art and religion side by side, especially if it is traditional for them to do so. HOWEVER, if some "Celestial Grand Master" requires me to become a Christian to learn an art founded by Budhists or Taoists, I'm outta there!!!
Someone's gotta tell 3 million people off, right? :D
I do agree with you though on what people do to religion. That's what makes me kind of cringe when people blame Religion (with a capital R) for the things that human beings do with it. Even if religion is completely man made and fictional, the ideal of it is worth respecting IMO.
BTW, :D
"fundamentalists were all over campus."
Ugh... I understand now. :D
Ryu
To answer the original question: NO.
'Nuff said.
Poor Ryu, j/k
I thought the imaginary friend bit was right on the ball.
How did these "intelligent" men of logic almost get you to come to the consideration that there is a mythological ****phobic toothfairy in the heavens who has coprohilic tenedencies and a serious voyeuristic fecal fetish, who of course is coupled with a inferior to women complex??
Just curious:D
LOL at RnR's remarkably creative trolling recently.
MonkeySlap Too
As a curious reversal on the theme, Christianity started as a purely spiritual movement, and only became political centuries later. It made up for lost time though. But since you mention holy books, the early emphasis is clear in their scriptures.
I have seen many schools that won't let you join unless you coverted into their religion. Do you think this is fair and why? I don't think it's fair at all.
Huh, come again. When, where, how and WHY.
If that is the state of MA in the US, I am worried VERY worried for you Guys.
Martial Arts traditionally were practiced a Spiritual centers as those centers were the centers of learning & knowledge.
This does NOT mean that the MA is specifically linked to that Religion or belief system.
Granted they were influenced and maybe adopted some ideas.
Lets see most Religions are against unnecessary blood shed and violence, and on top of that most Priest/monks are not allowed to spill blood.
Hence maces and culbs for Christian priest, and no bladed weapons for most worshippers.
Still smile at the image that many have of Shao-Lin priests wading through a river of blood and broken Bones, they are Buddhists.
Most of the warriors at those shrines were laymen and not priests, most religions had some sort of Warrior monk.
Nuff said.
"And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight. And the LORD said, Even thus shall the children of Isreal eat their defiled bread among the Gentiles, whither I will drive them." (Ezekiel 4:12-13)
Is poop nutritional? Do they serve that now instead of fake jesus flesh?
"But Rabshakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that htey may eat their own dung, and drink their own **** with you?" (II Kings 18:27)
Ummmm-yummmmy poop and pee.
"If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings:yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to your heart. Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it." (Malachi 2:2-3)
What is a day without some curses and some feces smeared on your face.
That's one heck of a post #666, Blackjack.
Chang-:D
Sorry, its the mean spirited atheist in me.
No need to apologize to me. I'm pretty much of the opinion that if there's anything that can be called a god, it doesn't give a rat's ass about morality, prayer, or any of the rest of that stuff. And it's a lot more likely that there's nothing that can be called a god, short of delusion-fed figments.
BJ,
Mostly because these philosophers and scientists do not talk in terms of "men in the sky" or "tooth fairies" or "ever present loving superlords who love all, but kill you if you make them angry" :D
The spiritual component that I have seen in many scientists (including even Albert Einstien) seems to move more towards a naturalistic type of spirituality, where what you do definitely matters in terms of "good and bad" etc. Religions such as Buddhism and Taoism for example easily fit in with scientific discoveries about our universe, time, cause and effect, etc. Notions about "God" can actually do the same, but unfortunately, too many people have instilled the thoughts of actual "people living in the sky."
My comment about "imaginary friends" was merely saying that the notion of "an order to things" might not be as far fetched as some believe. Do I personally think there is an "invisible man" in the sky? I highly doubt it. However, when people discuss things about religionI tend to listen anyway. :cool:
Ryu
"Lets see most Religions are against unnecessary blood shed and violence"
What that usually translates to is don't kill fellow beleivers, everyone else though is pretty much okay.
Don't beleive me? Go read your Bible or Koran. Ask what happened to the Caananites. You know the people who lived in the 'holy land' when GOD gave it to the israelites?
Convert or die. Wheee, gimme some of that old time religion.
While it is true that Byzantine soilders were refused sacrements during war time and other similar abberations, the black and white texts of most middle eastern religions encourage a considerable amount of violence against non-beleivers.
Oh, and I'm not singling out the 'people of the book'. The culture around the Zoastrian lands is the culture that gave us the Burkha and other oppressive traits now so lovingly associated with Islam.
Just leave me alone, is all I ask. I don't want to convert, and I don't want to have to send you to your god in self defense.
For the record, I know a silat group that uses silat as a means to convert practitioners into muslims. I had a big row with these guys.
Not to be confused with some guys like Gerakan Suci, who happen to be muslims, but don't push it on you one bit. (Sufi's actually)
MonkeySlap Too.
You are right of course. Christianity, Islam, etc have often been hijacked for political/economical purpose.
But don't confuse the teachings with what their followers do.
But I can't really see a KF school asking a Studet to convert to either Christianity or Islam. Which would be a good Joke in the West indeed.
Most of them will ask for Buddhism, Shintoism or Taoism, or a subsect/home cooked version thereof.
Which again is funny as most of those have the rule I mentioned and further funnily enough you can be a member of either belief system and STILL belong to another religion.
So, pls, try to think b4 you make a mute point just to be heard.
Have a nice day.
"it doesn't give a rat's ass about morality"
See that I would disagree with because "morality" in the sense of some kind of universal ethics and compassion for one another seems to play a big part in the lives of human beings. "It" being a physical thing doesn't really give justice to the notion of Ethics as they stand because to me that sounds like ethics are simply a byproduct of a "God" who doesn't have to follow them "himself." That makes no logical sense to people. Hence these kinds of arguments. If you ask me (and no one did :D ) I really think Ethics is a key role in understanding what is harmonious and what is not. I am starting to believe that there very well could be a natural "ethic" for the way things work. Though I'm not sure how to develop that concept at this time... ( :( I think I'm turning into a Taoist!!)
Basically my point is this. Ethics (as in Universal Ethics that all cultures must share in preventing access pain and suffering, helplessness, etc.) should be a major point in human relations and notions of "religion" of any kind. The motivations behind actions should be understood. If "God" can simply turn around and break the "ethics" "he" prescribes, it makes ethics and any of "his" words obsolete. There is no point. :)
So in that sense, that is why I say what I say. My notion of "God" is much different then most would think when they heard the word. But that's just the Buddhist in me I suppose.
Wish I could talk more, but the friend I'm working out with will be here in the next couple minutes, so ....last post for tonight probably.
Take care,
Ryu
Ryu,
Just messing with ya, I do believe there is a difference between philosophy and religon dogma, the only thing I like about religon is the tax beneifts, give me some of those, maybe I can start a buiness...I mean cult...I mean religon and start saving some greenbacks.
Maybe whorship a tactical folder, or a retractable baton, or a plunger or maybe those two creepy siamese twins that I saw singing on springer today.
I had to make one last post because........
:D A religion based on a tactical folder might lure me in for sure.
Who were these people ? enquiring minds want to know. Jhoon Rhe and the Moonies perhaps ? Church of BOB ?
Finally, a thread I know something about, and here I miss the whole thing playing Ghost Recon.
Just to address a couple points:
1. Christianity was indeed political from the very beginning, in that it was a Jewish sect, a radical Jewish sect (in its way), and the Jews were quite wrapped up in dealing with their Roman overlords. All men being the same in God's eyes is a profoundly political position to take against a system that thinks that slaves are okay and the Emperor is a god.
2. I think one of the greatest crimes organized, fundamental religion (including Catholicism, especially the pre-Luther flavor) has perpetrated on humanity is forcing rational, intelligent, otherwise spiritual people into choosing a comic book God in the sky or atheism. I have so many friends who are totally cut off from their spiritual side because too many people have tried to cast God as an old dude with a beard that keeps score. That's not God...that's Santa.
Me, I prefer mystical Judaism's way of explaining it: God is a verb.
I also like the Hindu practice of the God that is me bowing to the God that is you. I prefer to think (and I'm not alone, here) that all of us ARE God, and that simply by existing, we create God as we go.
Must...stop...talking...religion...and...hit...hea vy...bag...
Seriously, I could talk shop all night long.
--
Rev. Tim
MS T - Did you see my post?
The Rev -
"Christianity was indeed political from the very beginning, in that it was a Jewish sect, a radical Jewish sect (in its way), and the Jews were quite wrapped up in dealing with their Roman overlords."
You are mistaken. "Give unto caesar what is caesar's" is one of the quotes we have directly from Jesus. His philosophy was that religion had nothing to do politics - you do your religion thing, and you do your politics thing. This was directly opposed to Jewish beliefs, and specifically directly opposed to Jewish beliefs in what a messiah should be - which is exactly why Christianity was not a Jewish sect.
"I think one of the greatest crimes organized, fundamental religion (including Catholicism, especially the pre-Luther flavor) has perpetrated on humanity is forcing rational, intelligent, otherwise spiritual people into choosing a comic book God in the sky or atheism."
I'm incredibly confused about your 'pre-Luther' comment. Luther rejected the power of 'faith' (ie. belief; general religious character), the power of the 'sacraments' (ie. practices to empower direct and personal communion with the divine), and the power of 'good works' (ie. doing good stuff for people). In their place, he put the power of 'the word' (ie. reading and direct belief in the word of the Bible). This seems opposite to the kind of claim you are making.
P.S. Real men use OICW without the GL.
"I prefer to think (and I'm not alone, here) that all of us ARE God, and that simply by existing, we create God as we go. "
you're a satanist!
1. GOD exists
2. GOD made everything
3. GOD does not care about anything you do so long as you don't harm others.
All else is made by man to controll other men.
:D
So Braden..
You are not looking back far enough my intellectual friend. Say, in the time of Cain and Abel.... Cain and his people, the agriculturists, and Abel and his people, nomadic herders were at odds. Cain's people began...let me see...oh yes.."The tillers of the soil were watering their fields with the blood of semitic herders".Quote:
"You are mistaken. "Give unto caesar what is caesar's" is one of the quotes we have directly from Jesus. His philosophy was that religion had nothing to do politics - you do your religion thing, and you do your politics thing. This was directly opposed to Jewish beliefs, and specifically directly opposed to Jewish beliefs in what a messiah should be - which is exactly why Christianity was not a Jewish sect. "
Another interesting thing is the sacrifices of Cain and Abel. According to the text, God only excepted Abels offering(sacrifice). Why would a religion that ultimately served Cains brood say that Abel was the only one blessed by God. It doesn't make any sense. However, if the story of Cain and Abel were war propaganda from the Semites(people of Abel), it would start to become more clear. The Semites told this story amongst themselves. "We are the only ones blessed by god, curse those murdering soil tillers!". Now, why wasn't this story stomped out by Cain's followers you ask? Because the semites were never completely overrun, and their ancestors, who turned more to the way of Cain(ie. soil tilling and settlement) were the Hebrews...and..well you know how it goes from there. Political, yes?
GUHAHAHAHAHA Take a few theology courses and Im a leg up..expept maybe with you Rev. ;)
D AMNED SOIL TILLERS! Doh, forgot to take my pill......
Gab -
None of that is Christianity.
RD -
Interesting reasoning. Are you interested in discussing it?
Cain and Abels story is in Genesis, which is in the bible, i fail to see how that is not Christianity...
my daughter just stole my dinner.
da mn kids.
worse than dogs.
Someone back there told me not to confuse what people do with a religion with the religion.
Not interested - I'm referring to whats in the good "books." That is where I find all the scary stuff. Often what people have done with it is much more noble than the source material.
Do not beleive me? Read it. Not just the pretty sounding parts. All of it.
And yes, originally Christianity was a branch of Judaism - a fringe one for sure - but Judaism none the less. It was the Roman civil war that divided families and created the final break between the two.
Heck, originally Christianity was only for Jews and a few stragglers. It was only when one of the disciples noticed some of the mystery cults in Greece that it started to open up.
All middle Eastern religions are politics. Heck, as far as I can tell only Buddhism isn't. Maybe Taoism - some sects.
The fact that we have lost this realization is really scary.
Gab -
The Old Testament, as I'm sure you know, is the holy word of the Jewish people. The New Testament, as I'm sure you know, is the message of Jesus. If you have read the two of them, you will undeniably note that they are very different messages. It should fall, both intuitively and rationally, from the above that, where the messages differ, someone billing themself as a follower of Jesus (Christian) would side on the message of Jesus.
That's the simple response.
If you want the complex response - Jesus came with [at least what people interested in such things would call] an important message. One of Jesus's "big ideas" was that he had not come to replace or refute any aspect of society. He had this big message about how everyone and everything could be ok. If you look at the name of what was the first and primary school of his teachings, Catholic, you will find that it means 'universal' - and, pervsions which arose over time as it became popular aside, is no accident. What you have to keep in mind about Jesus and his message is that it did not, historically occur in a vacuum. He was born a Jew, in a Jewish culture, and he was preaching his message to Jews. It is no accident then, that he used Jewish metaphors to spread his message. You don't walk into a Jewish culture and use a Sumerian mythos to talk to them, it just wouldn't make any sense. So, Jesus came with a message, and it so happened that he was telling this message to Jews, and therefore in a Jewish way, and in addition he told them they didn't have to stop being Jews in order to follow his message (which, btw, is an overriding theme which should be kept in mind, in general for this whole discussion). However, you should not mistakenly conclude from these facts that the Jewish message is an integral part of Jesus' message - indeed, to conclude that would be in exact opposition of these facts.
Braden, sure, I'll discuss it, but after being raised Catholic and sending my daughter to Lutheran schools all her life and my own personal observations for the last 34 1/2 years, I think I've just said it all.
Gabriel, NO Christanity starts with the NEW TESTAMENT. Genisiss is PRE Christian writtings.
Braden...
Jesus was a Jew, his follwers were Jews, and they identified themselves *as* Jews. They were indeed a Jewish sect *initially*. Obviously, they evolved out of Judaism eventually. And I maintain that any group that stresses the community over the hierarchy and goes around knocking over money-changers' tables is behaving in a political fashion. I agree that Jesus was saying not to confuse the laws of men with the laws of God, but I think even that sentiment IS political. Governmental, maybe not, but fundamentally political? Absolutely.
As far as quotes we have directly from Jesus...historically speaking, we don't know that we have any. We have some good guesses as to which he might have said and which others might have attributed to him. That is, unless you're hoarding the Q gospel somewhere. ;)
And you misunderstood my "pre-Luther" comment. I was trying to say that the Catholic chuch from its inception has perpetuated the "old guy in the sky" model of God, especially when it didn't have any competition (ie Protestants!).
Notice how I'm much less verbose after a heavy-bag workout?
--
Rev. Tim
P.S. Downloaded the GRM4 mod yet? REAL men use a mortar!