13 monks......

Everybody know's the story of the 13 monks who saved LiShimin i gues...so I'm looking for the name of monk 13....

1. Shan Hu 2. Zhi Cao 3.Hui Chang 4.Tan Zong 5. Shan Hui 6.Ming Yue 7.Pu Sheng 8.Zhi Shou 9.Dao Guang 10.Zhi Xing 11.??? Man 12.????Feng

And what about the story of LiShimin where he proclaimed that from then on, the Shaolin Temple monks could eat meat and wine, along with the onions, garlic, chives and mustard ?? I remember an article where Shi Guolin is saying that none of this is true.

Who know's more about it ? Any help would be welcome.
Thanks...


A little confused,
Xiao:confused:

Unfortunately, I do not know the names of the monks you are aking for, but I can help with the meat eating thing.

Shao lin layman monks compare with the temple monks (who still live in the temple) the only different thing is that they can eat meat or drink beer, and other foods and beverages, but the rest about them is the same. So All shao lin temple monks who live outside the temple are shao lin layman monks. They have a certificate which issued by their sifu from shao lin temple. Because they all trained in the Shao lin temple in previous years and everybody is still permited (and proud to say) they are shao lin temple Wu Seng (fighting monks, or protection monks).

Hope that helps

marcusG

I hope the little bit of info help you with your question, if you would like anymore info about the Shao Lin Layman Monks, and those that still reside within the temple, please feel free to e-mail me at wyrdwzrd19@hotmail.com

I hope that I can answer any questions you have

marcusG

Quote:

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Training and fighting will never be separated. When you train, you fight yourself, and when you fight, you are training yourself to adapt. Being able to identify and understand this circle of events, will help lead your way on the path of enlightenment.

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I believe Shi Guolin

But I'm not sure if it is legible from the print. Give me some time to dig through my photo files... Be patient, my files are a mess.

And I think what Venerable Shi Guolin was reffering to was the ambiguity of the abstinences of a Shaolin Monk from the old LI shinmin story. A fully ordained monk must be vegetarian and abstain from alcohol, Shaolin or not. A warrior monk can indulge, but they are really a special level of layman disciple, ordained but they don't take all the vows, sort of in-between layman disciples like myself and fully ordained monks. It's confusing because the warrior monks are Shaolin monks, but they aren't fully ordained monks.

I recieved this information about a week before you posted that message, from Master Chen Wen Long, who is a Layman Monk, and now resides at the Ye He Ancient Castle in Si Ping city, in the Ji Lin Province. He now is the head director of the Northern China Shao Lin Martial Arts Academy, located in said province. It was an explaination about how the monks can train people, though no training is allowed in the actual temple itself anymore. The information was included so that there was a known background about the monks, and there were also written documentation from the Abbot verifying all things said.

I hope that I have helped you out on your questions, and will try to get more info on the subject if you require it.


marcusG

I very much doubt Shaolin Si ever

According to the current popular belief, Li Shinmin's order allowed for a special catagory of monks - warrior monks (wuseng) - that could eat meat and drink wine. Certainly martial arts existed at Shaolin prior to the warrior monks, prior to Tamo even, but now there was a special class of monk that just focused on martial arts and took less vows (weren't fully indoctrinated.) Some postulate that this was a tactical move on behave of Li Shinmin, lessen the restrictions and increase his Shaolin warriors. Others beleive that it never even happened - the emperor would not override the command of Buddha.

Who knows what happened back then. But we know what is happening now.

Today at Shaolin, most of the monks we know are warrior monks. After all, this is a martial arts forum, not a Buddhist forum. When I interviewed the Abbot at Shaolin, he said that the warrior monks are a special part of Shaolin's cultural heritage and he hoped that they would behave like monks (be vegetarian and abstain from intoxicants) but the use of the word 'hope' was pregnant with underlying meaning.

This situation is made particularly confusing since many of the private schools now have a team of warrior monks, private warrior monks. When the Shaolin Wushuguan openned, a small contingent of warrior monks were essentially hired by Dengfeng government to demonstrate and teach. As the private schools spread, they began have their own warrior monks to remain competative. Now it's difficult to say how many warrior monks there are. Many of the private schools are run by warrior monks who began at the wushuguan. My own master is like so.

Hi Gene,

There is no documentation that

Interesting point. Personally, I think the meat & wine thing today is the same as it was for Li Shinmin. Baiscally, you have a resource - warrior monks - but it's very demanding on the individuals who comprise that resource. Like any resource, you want more, so you relax the restrictions and reduce the demand on the individuals. For Li Shinmin, it was a military resource. For modern China, it's a cultural one. Whatever may have happened in between then and now, well, that's a lot of Chinese history - difficult to know for sure. But we can certianly look at what is happening now and draw some conclusions.

The forced relocation of Shaolin/Tagou village is very interesting. It's driving all the private schools down the mountain to Dengfeng. When it's done, the Abbot will have more control of the valley around the Temple itself, and we hope more control over it being the Buddhist institution it should be. In my interviews with him, that has always been his direction. But it also means that the private schools may get further from his control. Now this is where the warrior monks get interesting. Many private schools have their own stable of warrior monks. In a way, I can foresee it going two directions at once - The fully indoctrinated monks of Shaolin Temple get more 'Buddhist' (if I can use that term) while the warrior monks of the private schools expand and stray more. Time will tell.

I'll try look for that stele photo over Labor Day weekend for you. No promises, I'm not sure that it's that legible. Also, I remembered that I have a book of Shaolin rubbings (actually I have both the Chinese and English versions in my library) but if memory serves, it only focuses on the pagodas of Talin. I'll have to check to see if Li Shinmin's made it in there, since that would be a good rubbing.

Hi Gene
Thank you very much for

Sorry, I didn't look this weekend. I had 4 days off and I decided to spend it away from both martial arts research and computers. I'll try look sometime this week.

As for the pagoda book, the only place I've found them is at Shaolin. It's an oversize hardbound, at least the Chinese edition is, so much so that it doesn't fit in my bookshelf. I think the English edition is not as complete. To be honest, I haven't looked at them in a while so I can't really remember.

Wuseng is the current vernacular and you are right about the older term seng bing. As for the translation, I used to use the term 'martial monk for wuseng, but changed to warrior monk a few years ago. It's certainly a matter of personal interpretation, but to me, warrior connotates some level of spirituality, so it works better then monk soldiers. Perhaps I've been hanging out in the new age circles too long. :p

As for calling spades spades, well, we disagree there, but we already knew that. No need to beat a dead horse, especially not with a spade, club or heart. It's the diamonds we're looking for anyway, right? ;)

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"Perhaps I've been hangin

You raised an interesting point Gene which begs the question, 'How much control does the abbot have over the warrior monks'? If he should decree that monks would have to live in the temple as buddist monks, with all rules for meat, liquor and women, would it be enforced? I've never understood how monks could operate schools and earn a living. Surely they've pledged themselves to the temple and poverty etc? You seem to undertand this tricky situation Gene, care to share some light?

WushuSpear

P.S. Gene, how do ou rate the new abbot's reign so far? It's certainly been turbulent but do you think he's heading in the right direction?

r- There is undoubtably a fundamental paradox in a term lay-monk. I think most people forget that Buddhism was a monastic practice and did not allow for lay followers originally. It can still be challenging to rectify as a serious lay practitioner, especially when family is concerned. Now, my understanding of the current wuseng is that they are laymen disciples that adopt an 'honorary' monk status. The don't take all the vows but they do that the Shi surname. It's a big grey zone undoubtably, made even more complex in modern times. I can't really say about the past, but it seems that Shaolin has always had such ambiguities.

Still looking for that pic and those diamonds :)

w- The private schools are all run by ex-monks and martial monks. They don't take poverty vows. In fact, when it comes to poverty, Shaolin has a history of land ownership, which is another grey area. It's a very different Buddhist sect, with a lot of grey areas and exemptions.

The wuseng represent Shaolin's martial culture and are an important part of Shaolin today. You might give a careful read to what the Abbot said in his statement to our readers in our last Shaolin special. http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsma...agjanisk.html. His wording was very careful and we went to great lengths to translate it accurately.

As for the Abbot's reign, I absolutely support his intention to bring more Buddhism into Shaolin. Really that's what it's all about. Buddhism is the heart, kungfu is the hand (or fist and the case maybe.) The Abbot has had to juggle the desire of local Dengfeng govt., which I'm sure is very challenging. He is leading Shaolin at one of its most critical turning points. And I totally support his attempt for the UNESCO world heritage list.

I will miss the Shaolin village of the 90's though. That was an amazing place. A lot of people were offended by the touristy kitch, but then, a lot of people haven't been to many holy places in Asia.

You know, memory is a funny thing, especially mine, and I blame my lapses on too many blows to the head. Many of my memories are martial casualties...

There is only one book - Song Shan Shao Lin Si Bei Ke Shuen - and it is translated into Chinese, Japanese and English. It's big, 170 pages, 15" x 10", a great resource if you study calligraphy, which I do not, so it has been sitting in my library gathering dust for years. That's a shame because it's quite a treasure. It does have a rubbing of the tablet in question I think - I can't read it and I beleive it is incomplete. It's in an old calligraphy and I can't even find Shinmin's signature and am going by the caption.

There were actually two Li Shinmin tablets, one carved in 621 and another in 728. Both bear Li Shimin's signature and tell the same story although the former in Han script, the latter not so. Li Shinmin died in 649 and yet the latter tablet signature is still reputed to be by his hand.

r.(shaolin) - I can xerox the page for you. Contact me privately with a fax # or address.