Training with Monks why does it matter?

All this B.S. about who trained with Monks. Do you think because you train with a so called Monk your any better off than training with someone else. Sounds to me like you guys are trying to validate what it is you study and elevate yourselves beyond the rest of the Kungfu community. Ya know I saw Yan Ming and his students and it reminded me of some of the Ninja schools around town. The expression on my face was that of "man I hope these guys never get into any cuz they will get dusted". So again what is the relevance of whether or not you train with a monk?

Monks know that there's more to kung fu than just fighting.

Yan Ming is a master of selling his visual presentation. Hence the success of his school. Also, his fighting technique (as I learned, anyway) is very simple, similar to Bruce Lee. Maybe 5 basic kicks, 3 punches, and forms to create strength, speed, and chi.

The demos are just his wushu style.

I'm assuming you guys are from NYC any schools you recommend this is directed to the people who've been to Yan Mings.

"There are no shortcuts in Kung Fu only long days of Hard Work."

There are almost 100 martial arts schools in NY. It's so hard to recommend any of them, since we all have our own personal tastes and tolerances.

The web and a local yellow pages are your best leads. My last search took two years of watching classes, taking classes, and moving around.

hey we are only trying to share experiences with each other, no one ever said training with the monks was better than with anyone else. it would be like if you made contact with maybe another one of your masters students student( i phrased it this way because you said your master is your teachers teacher)and you wanted to know his/her experience and training techniques. so back off, we know you don't think the monks are real and know no real kungfu, you post it on every forum, yet to discuss your lineage and such...it is secret, well i sure get tired of your posts because you won't share any details with us. it seems to me you are the one trying to elevate yourself above the rest of the martial community by discrediting everyone else's teachers. i mean after 12 years of studying your heart isn't settled....you still try to deface others.
you are in dallas right, well i will be there this weekend for the jimmy wong tournament. i would love to meet you and talk about shaolin and such...you can even talk to my curent sifu, shi xing hao. if you think he only know wushu then you are sadley mistaken. he would be willing to discuss things with you too. now this isn't any kind of challenge, like your take it to the mat attitude you had before. this is an invitation for a mature discussion. if you want to meet, email me privately at kungfu****@kungfu****.com
respect to all,
dieter wagner

You vanished off my "trained with shaolin monks thread." I was beginning to wonder.

I don't think I even implied that training with a monk makes you better than training with someone else - in fact that would be a little hypocritcal coming from me, since I train with someone else myself. What is interesting to me is how Shaolin is spreading, especially in the face of such skepticism. I just wanted to see who trained with monks to create some dialog - after all, that's what the forum is for, eh? According to my infopop monthly report for May, it was the most popular topic of the month. And I admit, I'm very pleased with that. Now what to post as a follow up....

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com

>>Monks know that there's more to kung fu than just fighting

Says who?

>>Yan Ming is a master of selling his visual presentation. Hence the success of his school. Also, his fighting technique (as I learned, anyway) is very simple, similar to Bruce Lee. Maybe 5 basic kicks, 3 punches, and forms to create strength, speed, and chi

Sounds to me like he doesn't know much and if thats all he gets out of forms, sounds to me like he doesn't understand the depth of the material. Oh yeah, thats right the material left with the masters in in their exodus from China in 1928-1933.

To Kungfu ****: What irritates me about these new monks is their ties to the old school is weak, their knowledge of the Shaolin systems before the communist take over is fragmented beyond repair. I could careless whether they are monks or not, it is their Shaolin kungfu knowledge that concerns me. A monk is merely a religeous icon, but after that 14 year old boy was beaten to death by one of the "monks" at Shaolin temple it does make me wonder about their lagitamacy. I have also noticed that more people coming to the defense of the PRC lately, however I also noticed more and more of these "monks" leaving their simple lives to come to the U.S. To make some serious Cash.

>>You vanished off my "trained with shaolin monks thread." I was beginning to wonder

Well Gene, I have a life. I'm ivolved in two films right now, and training for a San Shou tournament in Houston providing I can find out when it is, my contact is dificult to get a hold of and I havn't been able to find anything on the Inet. I am also training for the Ironman and working relaunching my music career. So if I seem to vanish again you know why.

reemul how do you know that the ties of todays monks are week....have you spent time with these monks you discredit or do you blindly follow the word of someone else. where is your proof other than what you have heard or been told. maybe with some of the people at and around shaolin today the ties are week, but there are 10,000+ practioners around and in the temple ranging in ages from 3-80+, so how can you speak for them all. how can you assume they know anything of real shaolin, how can you speak for the old men who have lived in or around shaolin temple thru the cultural revolution and whose families have lived and passed on shaolin kungfu from before 1928. can you really tell us about everyone of these people, have you ever really been in the area, have you ever met these monks you discredit, have you met these masters that have lived generations deep in shaolin village. to me it sounds as though you only speak from what you have been told by your teacher or master.....i am willing to listen to what info you have from your master, but you won't share that....you seem to tiptoe around any real discussion, maybe you do have some good info but it is a secret( sounds fishy to me). you seem to know so much of how china really works, yet you haven't been there.....hmmm, that one seems a bit immature. i mean most people in other countries feel that in the US you can do anything, you are free, true freedom....but you and i know that isn't true. we know that our gov't isn't always for the people and truethful. you have to live here to know how things really work....you need to live in china to know how it really works. so i still look forward to a good discussion with you, if you ever have anything to say other than what you think happend pre 1928 at shaolin. lets talk about what makes your style shaolin, what are the characteristics of shaolin, not forms but the core concepts.............

dieter wagner

he as well as i have questions about the validity of these so called "monks" just as certain individuals have certain questions about the validity of a certain school that i am trying to figure out......mypost in the subject of who has trained with a monk,,reflects what i have studied and what i have been told from eyewitness accounts of the shaolin temple in china and of the monks. CHINA is Communist,,and the communist goverment controls EVERYTHING there. get that through your heads folks. the shaolin temple would not have been opened back up for viewing if the communist government didnt want it to be so.
also,,,it is a TOURIST ATTRACTION,,that rakes in income for the government as well as the upkeep of the temple,,as in toilets and such,running water,,electricity..we;ll you need these things to keep an amusement park going. i would encourage all of you to read the history of MAOist
doctrines in china. it is very sad what has happened to the people of china as well as tibet.
China is also in economically depressed, and is starting to CAPITOLIZE on tourism and trade. money goes in to china it does not go out of the country. WE have known about the history of shaolin for only 30 yrs in this country,,remember bruce lee? and where did we learn about the shaolin temple in the beginning? TV. remember KUNG-FU? and after the success of the show all these books started coming out on the subject out of nowhere and they all told a different story to us,, NIxon helped to open the doors of trade and travel to china. china's reason for going communist was to abolish the monarchy and get with the rest of the industrial world.......now with all of these FACTS in mind we turn to the shaolin temple and monks. the temple is more popular where in in the world,,is it china? do they ALL sit around and dream about the shaolin temple? its AMERICA WHO HAS PROPAGATED THE TEMPLE
andit is CHINA THAT CAPITOLIZES ON OOUR SENSE OF THE GRANDIER. remember what was in this country before kung-fu? JUDO, KARATE, JUIjuitsu. Were they being capitolized on by the japanese..nope. not at the time..... MONKS,,oh yes i almost forgot the monks. i have seen"REAL" monks, i have been with buddhist monks(thai). THese shaolin Momks are not MONKS,,theyre dressed up to be as that for it brings in the money from the blue eyed fantasy seekers and movie fanatics.
nothing more.

1o

[This message was edited by R. on 06-04-01 at 10:33 PM.]

good points Willow Sword.

I think a number of posters are trivializing the scale and thoroughness of the the cultural revolution.Early estimates put the numbers at 2 million victims. Recent evidence has put the true number at 10 times that. These numbers have been concealed from the rest of the world for decades. The fact is, the Chinese Cultural Revolution is the largest mass murder in the twentieth century. I would like to underline the world CULTURAL because
it very much included the traditional martial arts and in particularly those connected in anyway with religion. It truly is a miracle that any traditional martial arts remain in the PRC.
The central point of the 1960's Cultural Revolution was to get rid of the old culture. This was ONE serious attempt and it was largely very successful. (Aspects of the objectives in that revolution remains to this very day).
The body count is estimated at around 20 million, which is unsurpassed in world history. The scale and implications of this fact is something that is very difficult to grasp. Most people do not. What remained of Shaolin in the PRC is but remnants.
What training was done was in all probably very minimal if it did take place at all during this time. What remained of Shaolin martial arts after this horrific human tragedy are scattered pieces.
Even today the PRC leadership is categorically against the concept of lineage that isn't under their direct control. In other words the curriculum that is used is the product of a committee that has research what remains of the
traditional arts and identified forms they feel represent Songhan Shaolin curriculum.

Second point not every monk at Shaolin did martial arts in fact most know no or little martial arts. Third point - the centra l focus of monks and nuns life was not
martial arts but Buddhism. This idea that a bunch of seventy year olds were getting together and risking their lives and children they may have been tutoring to train wushu is a big big stretch. So when certain M onks from the PRC make claims that
they trained in traditional Shaolin martial arts during Cultural Revolution I can only
react with utter disbelieve.

No true martial arts lineages exist in the PRC. The PRC just would not, well not, stand for it. Any o rganization outside their full control is not tolerated. That’s why the Fulon organization fried them. This is why the Vatican freaks them out. Oh yes there is a Roman Catholic Church in the PRC. The official RC Church in the PRC is run by a PRC comm ittee which is why the PRC’s RC Church is not recognized by the Vatican. To this very day the underground Catholic Church is being persecuted. The Tienimen Square slaughter was not just political incident invented by the West.
Sadly, it appears that e ven the US wants to ignore it for political reasons of their own.
Most in the West erroneously think that at most 200 people were shot in Tenimen!
I’m sorry taking a trip out to China (as one poster put it ) is not evidence of the what is really going on. The PRC hid 18 million murders for 4 decades from the international community and you think staying at the the Shaolin Hotel for a couple of weeks gives one the true picture. Guess again.

Kind regards
r.

reemul: Well, that's cool you have a life and I truly mean that in all earnesty. You'll have to let us know about the progress of those films, your music and the Ironman. I'm always genuinely fascinated with how CMa affects other media such as those.

And while you're in Houston for that Sanshou, you should really stop by and visit Deshan and Xinghao. Meet these monks face-to-face and see their traditional stuff. Dieter is there too. Then let us know what you think.

willow sword & r: Communism doesn't work like most westerners imagine, especially in China. China is too big to be ruled by any government. It's a problem that has plagued it for thousands of years. So it's not like Orwell at all - it's more like High Noon. Posse mentality. Local sheriffs and small fiefdoms. Away from the congested cities, the fastest draw wins, and in China, we aren't talking about guns, we are talking kungfu. Seriously, I have witnessed more street fights in China than any other place. Challenges go down at Shaolin a lot. They are tried and tested by fighters of all caliber, all the time. So it's very hard for me to believe that PRC kungfu is some charade after witnessing kungfu street fights, at Shaolin and all across China.

As for Shaolin's tourist attraction status, tourism was a direct result of Deng reformations and revitalized some of the damage done from the CR. While the CR was certianly one of the the most horrible events in human history, one has to understand the context - why and how it happened - and understand that it was not successful - Chinese communism never achieved Mao's ultimate goal of true democracy (but then given our last election, neither did we.) But of the 2,000,000+ tourists, less than 1% is non-PRC, so it's really not for Westerners at all. In fact, I think that's what offends most non-chinese, shaolin is not really westerner-friendly. But then, every religious site is tourist. In fact, the most tourist plagued place I have ever been was Bodh Gaya. And yet I still found some meaning there, validifying my pilgrimage. Tourism and holy sites are not mutually exclusive at all, in fact they are usually hand-in-hand and have been so for centuries.

It's funny that you mention Thai monks. My experience at Wat Po found Thai monks to be some of the most eclectic, drinking beers and bbqing in the temple. Especially after that horrible embezzlement scandal that happened in Thailand recently, I'm surprised you used them as an example. Most all Thai males enter monastic life for a short period during their lives, so that changes their attitude towards being a monk. They are often average people, full of vice and delusion, but on the path. And despite their digressions, they are real monks too.

Chan buddism is really unique. Just as Tamo answered to the Emperor, there is no doctrine. So to paraphrase Herrigal, we enter the path of chan (zen) through different means. Kungfu is just another means. It is a Decartian view separates the wen and wu. While wenseng and wuseng exist, it is like taiji, there is a little yin in the yang and vice versa, not black and white, but a spectrum between polarities with all the dynamism existing along the transition.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com

No disrespect Gene, but we live in a Republic...thank goodness. ;) If anyone tries to institute a "ultimate goal of true democracy" in this country I suspect a civil war will result.
Sorry to hop off topic, I found R. and The Willow Sword's posts absolutely fascinating. The more recent history of China isn't something my instructor delves too deeply into...and, of course, no one mentioned it during my school days. And it's always nice to hear from someone that's "been there" Gene. Great posts guys.

-Radhnoti

I for one do not deny anyones martial abilities there at the "temple". but the fact still remains that the idea of true Shoalin in a communist dictatorship is still a very impossible idea. As has been proven before that the "Monks" there are Wushu artists that dress up as monks to entertain.
As for being a western unfriendly place,,,i agree whole heartedly with that. BUT i guarantee you this: if i were a westerner with 10,000 dollars in my pocket i would be welcomed there with open arms and bright eyed smiles. As for your comments about the street fights that go on there all the time. take a trip to oakland CA or Compton,,or the ward districts of houston. tell me the difference. aside from us having guns in our kids hands and them armed with knives and whatever else. most economically depressed countries will have this element to them,,it has nothing to do with the "kung-fu" mentality. this whole subject is about SHAOLIN MONKS. The Thai Monks have a different system than the chinese monks as well as the vietnamese monks and the tibetan monks and so on and so forth. but the fact still remains that they are freely practicing individuals in a country and government who allows them to do so. i dont know where you have seen the thai monks you speak of gene but that is not the case where i have been and what i have seen of them. they are some of the mist humble and peacefull people i have ever come across9 i dont care if they have bbqs or drink beer. anyway i am ranting and i will stop.
MAny Respects,,,,,,,willow sword

willow sword,
who proved that all the monks are wushu atheletes dressed up. i stayed at shaolin for over a month in 1996, and there are more than 10,000 students training in a square mile area. there are many different schools that are all associated with shaolin, some former monks, some disciples of monks, some are families that have lived in this area for decades(pre-1928). i do agree that not everyone dressed as a monk in shaolin village is one. many times you see students at some of these schools dressed as monks doing demonstrations and such on their school grounds. these people don't just walk around dressed like this all the time and they don't walk around inside the temple dressed like this either. some of these schools put on tours and claim to be monks, but usually are not, they just come from shaolin village. but as for the monks that live and train inside the temple, they are real monks and some practice more kungfu than others and some practice more buddhism than kungfu. my sifu said he only spent about 2-3 hours a day studying with his buddhist teacher(who didn't practice kungfu) and spent about 8 hours a day training his kungfu. the monks who perform and train foreigners at the wushu quan are from the temple, not from the other schools in the area. usually the way the monks at the temple are chosen is by being a student of a current monk. i believe one of the reasons abbot shi yong xin is trying to clean up the area is partly because of the misconception of who is a monk and who isn't. imagine trying to control thousands of people in such a small area, so the best way is to make them leave(i guess). as for the monks who are in the states, they are all from the temple....not from a school in the village. so to say it has been proven that they are all wushu athletes is just an impossible fact.
willow sword, are you in the houston area. come join our morning adult class with shi xing hao and tell me that i am learning contemporary wushu. we only learn traditional shaolin in this class, the contemporary wushu is a seperate night class. i have done both classes and there is a huge difference between the two. so for you to claim my teacher is only a contemporary wushu athlete, is a big misconception on your part. come down and see for yourself, if you still feel the same way then i will respect your opinion, but until you have met and trained with one of these monks i don't feel you have the knowledge/experience to discredit them. don't just group all the monks and people in shaolin village together. they are all individuals with all different levels of shaolin kungfu. it would be like me assuming you and reemul are the same type of person because you both discredit the monks, that would just be an immature concept on my part. so judge these people as individuals after you have some experience with them, not just clump them all together in a prejudice way.
respect to all,
dieter wagner
kungfu****@kungfu****.com

>>Challenges go down at Shaolin a lot. They are tried and tested by fighters of all caliber, all the time. So it's very hard for me to believe that PRC kungfu is some charade after witnessing kungfu street fights, at Shaolin and all across China.

The question is not whether their kungfu is effective, the question is, are they the true inheiriters of Shaolin Kungfu, a brand of kungfu that spans hundreds of generations and benefitting from centuries of undiluted research and developement. Considerring what I have seen from them, I would have to say no.

When the communist government was taking over, the Shaolin temple was split as to whether the new government was going to interfere with the Temple. The masters for the most part were in agreement that the new government was going to interfere with the Shaolin temple. However some of the students felt otherwise. When it was found out that the promenant heads of the Shaolin family systems were on a hit list, the debate ended and the masters left the country. This is evident in that these systems no longer exist at the new PRC Shaolin Temple, thus ending the line of undiluted martial research at Shaolin temple. Jet Li testifies that on location at the temple during the filming of his movie "Shoalin Temple" that aside from a grounds keeper a cook and the abbot, the temple was pretty much abandoned, as it was said to be by our master. Occording to our master their were a few masters that stayed behind, but they were on lock down by the PRC. Between 1933-1970 No one went in or out. By the time people were showing up because of the success of Jet Li's movie, these guys were too old to teach the sum of their knowledge to fresh students, as Well the PRC came in, realizing this was a tourist trap, and rebuilt the temple with tourism in mind, not restoring it to what it once was.

To Kungfu**** (I don't know why they blanked your name the last time) but anyway. You don't know where I've been, You don't know what I've seen. As I have told you in the past our family history is guarded for the time being simply because with all the contraversy in the CMA community and the travesty of karate schools in the 70's changing their history and claiming to be kungfu due to the popularity of Bruce Lee, We would like to avoid theft of our material and history until we have a means of legally and effectively protecting what is ours. When that happens I will tell you guys everything and you can tell me how full of I am at that time. Some things I won't discuss simply because it's not my place. As for our master, he likes being anonymous and enjoys his privacy, so he will remain nameless.

YEAH YEAH!!! what REEMUL SAID kungfu****.
haha i dont think i mentioned your teacher in the postings,,i dont even know who you are. i apologize if i insulted your teacher and you,,,,that was not my intention. no i am not in the houston area i am a 20 yr austinite living in
new mexico now but i have been to the grand ole toilet that is houston. sorry to say but houston is a humid hot polluted babylon....woo am i raving? goodness gracious me,,im sorry. uhh what you guys do at your school is fine with me i have no judgement about it. so you stayed at the temple. did you like the televisions they had there in the rooms? i remember the bruce lee movie enter the dragon,,on han's island no one was allowed out after dark,,was it like that there? im sorry i am being a **** as well,,ill stop,,,,,,Many respects,, willow sword :rolleyes:

Geneching and kungfu****, you guys have actually TRAINED with Shaolin monks and thus are the authorities on this.

I know one thing: Any kung fu man or sifu who goes out to degrade other styles is NOT WORTHY of the Shaolin moniker.

I applaud the Shaolin monks and their disciples Geneching and kungfu**** for demonstrating the restraint and respect that is exemplary of the name "Shaolin".

:rolleyes:

huh? I don't recall being insulted, at least what I consider to be an insult. I'm not in houston either I'm in Austin.

You have strange logic. You name Gene and Kungfu **** as authorities of Shaolin kungfu haveing been there in recent years, then what do you consider someone whos father and Grandfather where not only there but head of the respective system. Someone who studied his whole life keeping his heritage alive living in exile due to the PRC trying to kill his family. These men were at Shaolin long before any of these new age monks and yet you discount their acounts of what took place. Your pathetic.

radhnoti: Calling our gov't a republic is by no means disrespectful to me. I might call it a conspiracy :p

As for post fascination, this real vs. fake shaolin thing is continual debate, especially here in the ethnocentric USA. Personally, I think it's our lack of a long history that makes Americans fail to understand countries with really long histories. I have yet to see anyone maintain this fake monk stance when face-to-face with shaolin monk.

willow sword: Let's drop the whole thai monk thing since its not really relevant. I find them to be sweet too, but certainly no purer than the monks of shaolin.

Why do you beleive it impossible for shaolin to exist under communism? It has survived much worse - look at the oppression it took under the dynasties like the late Tang or early Qing.

I live right next to Oakland and sit on the advisory board of a free medical clinic. Many of my associates work at Highland ER - the frontlines if you will. The difference is guns. Street fights are everywhere, no doubt, but they are different at shaolin - flying kicks, chin na, ancient weapons - it's straight out of a shaw bro pic. Anyway, next time you're in Oakland, drop on by with that 10K and we'll be smiles and hugs. :D

Actually, and I mean this in earnest to everyone here, if you are ever in our neighborhood, do stop by the Kungfu Qigong Magazine office. It's always great to meet our readers.

reemul: Shaolin has always had an difficult relationship with the gov't of China, even before communism. That was a point of my SSSL vs. BSL article. It's true that many masters fled, but many stayed too. Mind you, getting out of China has never been easy. Not all of the masters had the capability to leave. Some hid on Songshan. Some went home. The temple was abandoned but the lineages remained, both in the PRC and abroad.

I have never been quite sure where this whole 'fake shaolin' thing arose, but perhaps it is from some of those non-prc masters feeling left out. I suppose if I were teaching BSL and a monk moved in next door teaching SSSL, I would feel threatened. I assure you that the monks respect those masters just as much as each other, and welcome them to help further their research and share teachings. There are certainly fake monks, just as there are fake masters here, but there are many real monks too.

One often unspoken factor ourside PRC is the kungfu ban around the CR. It was selective. Many masters taught the military and police, so they escaped the ban. Their practice was merely overlooked. In PRC, it's all about guanxi, and many monks had powerful guanxi. They still do.

I'm not sure I understand your dates - 1970 was Deng's Open Door policy, but 1933 was what? Chiang's Scorched earth policy? That was in Jiangxi two provinces away from Henan so I'm unclear how that affected Shaolin.

kungfu****: willow sword is right. Houston is hell. I wouldn't call it babylon, myself, it's more like one of the lower cesspool pits. I hope our Bush-run republic doesn't head that direction.

But lotuses can emerge from muck
So good luck

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com

i enjoy our dialogue. Yes i must apologize for my rantings about the shaolin monks at the shaolin temple....it seems contradictory considering what my school has to put up with.
i am a typical american in certain respects and also i am a realist to an extent as well. i like to speak out ,at times, about governments and dictatorships that do not work or make a country not prosper ie;PRC,in my opinion. Man i wish i had 10k in my pocket ,,i would buy advertising space with you guys for my school i am about to open up in Taos nm. (it will be SD affiliated,,but i will be teaching the internal systems to which i have dedicated my life to now).
we both know alot about buddhism and chan buddhism and alot of "isms". so iguess lets just leave it at that.
also i am not really into "flash and dash" looks with respects to martial arts,,that is why i like SD..it has forms that are great,in my opinion,but it also has that pugilistic karate aspect to it that i like as well....ive always tried to keep a balance with the internal/external aspects of everything. to me, that is what SD is,,,,but anyway back on the subject of the shaolin monks,,,,,be there true MOnks at the temple, i pray for them as i do everything that is oppressed in this world that they are able to, despite the tyranny and tourist clap jap they are engrossed in, prosper and live a long and happy life.
MAny respects ,,,willow sword

but i have seen and bin thru this discussion elsewhere......

Bhuddism is an art of insight,only viewed in realtime......many characteristics,many faces...

if won has not experianced bhuddism won really shouldnt argue on whats bhuddhist

if you knew bhuddist you would understand and there would be no way of communicating

now if yanming was a fraud whatever

but as an mc when i start to analyze individuals my intuition gets all judgmental and i start slight visualizing flavors of viewed characteristics......scientifically
bhuddism is do what u want just dont harm innosence.........now you need to understand all theorys tao yin/yang etc... stop looking at it as some form of divinty
and see it is simply a truth worn in precise ages of human history.........thats it really simple.


now bhuddism is friendly sayings to biuld heart

so if yanming does drink maybe eat a burger when in roam......doesnt matter does he have heart

:cool:

basically what i want to know is to those who say shaolin chan kungfu from pre 1928 is impossible under the prc.

what is pre1928shaolin
could you explian

Hey, new to this forum but not martial arts. As expected it seems like everyone is at each others throats as far as what is factual or not and making huge generalizations.

When mentioning Shaolin Monks, what does it take to become a shaolin Monk first of all? Today's standards are nothing like the past. Traditionally a Shaolin monk would have to go through some life threatening tests as a rite of passage. I seriously doubt this is practiced anywhere in the world anymore.

Going to China to train at a shaolin temple I don't see as anything more beneficial versus training anywhere else in the world. Shaolin temples have been converted into tourist sites where the monks teach kung fu, and sell dim sum on their spare time. And generally they aren't monks, just wearing orange robes.

If you speak of traditional Shaolin Monks, I think that there are probably more of them spread across the world versus mainland china. As stated above the government would seek to eradicate all Shaolin priests that wouldn't agree to work with their armies. So they either fled china, went into deep hiding or semi-cooperated or were killed.

I train in what is called Shaolin Temple Kung Fu but I can't honestly say that the art I train in is true shaolin or not. Other than as a history lesson I see very little point in arguing about this topic. If what you're learning is useful to you and helps you achieve your goals who cares what it's called, who invented it, or where it comes from.

willow sword: Thanks for the apology - it wasn't necessary.

PRC certainly has it's problems, but so does any gov't including ours (especially lately!) I would say that China has always been difficult to govern, and given it's pre-PRC state, communism was an improvement.

Good luck w/your school. 10K would have given you a lot of ad space here, but in lieu of that, you might consider just carrying our magazine - distributors get a listing and it only costs $16.00+S&H w/your good account. That means you only have to sell 4 issues to break even. Contact 1-800-604-3332 if you are interested.

diego: I think we've all seen this discussion elsewhere. But here's a warning for you - the chan/zen path is very treacherous when viewed as you have stated. Look how it influenced Nazism and Japan during WWII. As the vipassana practitioners say of us zennists "zen is a great method - too bad it's amoral."

1928 was a big turning point in China when the Nationalists took Beijing. Check out my article in our e-zine on Shaolin vs. Bak Sil Lum for some historical context.

el pietro: Welcome to the forum.

The entrance to the Shaolin order is simple - be accepted by the order. Life threatening tests are somewhat mythological (and actually used for the exit not the entrance to Shaolin - at least according to legend.) To be accepted as a monk at Shaolin is the same as any Buddhist temple. Abbot Yongxin is pushing for graduation from Buddhist college as a further requirement - not sure if it has happened yet.

Going to Shaolin is beneifical for two reasons. 1st is the people - it is the largest martial community in the world w/tens of thousands of practitioners in the area. With that large a base, the apex can go much higher. These are full time martial artists. All they do is practice, so they get pretty good. 2nd is the mountain - Songshan is spectacular - the central sacred mountain of China. There is an amazing power and majesty to that mountain. It's beuaty is truly inspirational.

As for Shaolin monks outside of China, there is probably about 1 or 2 dozen only, compared to an order of 100-200 + 50-100 wuseng. This doesn't count those who have renounced their vows. In the USA there are 7 plus 1 renouced.

And I agree with your last part - what's in a name?

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com

- the chan/zen path is very treacherous when viewed as you have stated. Look how it influenced Nazism and Japan during WWII. As the vipassana practitioners say of us zennists "zen is a great method - too bad it's amoral."


I CAN SEE THAT; like you might think all wonderful but in times of real fiath you could falter on the simple basis of oh its all just infinite etc. definatly bin around that!!!!

I can get a basic idea of what you meant on the japanese and ww2---what i think you meant was The
japanese viewed thier emperor as son of god type figurine...zen is the religion??or ideologie of japan in ww2 ""not to clear on that"""but if im right then they would be like oh we are the universes best gold the rest is dirt lets reformate""""""""'like the crusades of the catholik"""

my history is not to good;i do know hitler was like oh im a ugly half jewish/german individual
pompous vegetarian who loves pastries into black magic and obviosly lovn the scent of the abomb invention

so he and they are twisted hes this little pudgy dark hiared ????? whos all rep the blueyed blond race???????????any way a little die'gression its all in the name!!!!!!!!!!

so was the nazi using zen concepts im kinda lost on that.

sidenote------gene u also study sunlutang right?

was he into the plum blossom poles,i am suddenly all week bin very curios about all the variable individuals who partook in that study

TAKE CARE

:D ;)

Gene,

If you want to know where most people get the idea that the monks don't know real Shaolin kungfu, just take a look at some of the "documentaries" like "Shaolin Kungfu", and "Dragons of the Orient". They have monks performing bad compulsory wushu, cheap parlor tricks, and hokey staged fights. Then there's also the phoney tours going around.

THATS A GOOD1 CUZ EVERYONE WOULD AGREE DONT HARM INNOCENT INDIVIDUALSZ SO ITSZ LIKE YOU CANT DO ANYTHING
LIKE u cant harm your innosence or u mighte fall off and harm innosence think of a wheel :cool:

diego: Check out Zen at War, I can't remember the author but it came out a recently. It documents the antisemiticism of some renown zen figures during WWII, some who are still considered enlightened. Also check the history of what happened with Herrigal after he wrote Zen and the Art of Archery.

brad: I've seen those docs and tours. They are performances for the general population, not martial artists, and that audience wants wushu and parlor tricks. It's very true that these can be manipulative performances, but traditional kungfu lacks popular appeal because you need to know more to appreciate it, sort of like good jazz. To reach the most people, showy stuff and parlor tricks are more effective. Just like any demo, it's in the context of performance so it is not indicative of daily practice.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com