I don't think so. What do you think? Back it up with theories and actual fact, not preference or fond wishes.
-Scott
"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.
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I don't think so. What do you think? Back it up with theories and actual fact, not preference or fond wishes.
-Scott
"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.
Here's mine. I don't think Wing Chun is an internal system, based off a collection of facts and experiences.
1) Other internal stylists definetly think that Wing Chun is externally based, using jing power rather than internal buildup of chi to execute the moves. This could probably be discounted, though, because what does a Bagua man know about Wing Chun? But still worthy of consideration.
2) Historically, not counting the Yim Wing Chun LEGEND (it may be true, but we know that Wing Chun was in existence over 200 years before Yim Wing Chun was alive. However, she probably did make the system famous and rename it after herself. Wing Chun is a system probably made to teach groups of peasants how to fight in a short amount of time--this explains why 80% of the training involves two people--you're teaching two people something at the same time, which is faster and leads to actual combat skills in shorter amounts of time.
Also, Wing Chun was made presumably with the idea of cutting out uneconomical moves from traditional southern styles--internal styles are mostly comprised of moves that seem uneconomical when compared to 'combat reality' moves. I think the people who created Wing Chun were probably seen much as we see combat realists/MMA people in our times.
3) Most of ideas regarding Wing Chun as an internal style seem to branch from the first 6 moves of Sil Lim Tao, which are done extremely slow. When asked why it is done so slow, many people assume it is done slow for the same reasons Tai Chi sets are done slow (and they are at about the same pace,) which is to collect and store and cultivate Chi. Well, this isn't necessarily the case--and even seems unlikely, since there are no other slow moves in the entire system.
A more plausible explanation is that in Sil Lim Tao, you are learning the very basics of Wing Chun, and thus the base that all the rest of your knowledge stems from. If you learn to perform all of your moves perfectly from the start, you will have a strong foundation on which to base your skills. Now, think again. Why are the punches done 3 times, slow motion, and then 3 more at the end? Which move are you most likely to be doing the most in your Wing Chun career? The straight punch is the heart of Wing Chun, coming from the centerline to your opponent's centerline--the poetic basis of Wing Chun--Heart to Heart.
Look at the other slow moves--(their chinese names escape me, so I will use English descriptions to explain them) the tan sau, the hand ridge block (god, why can't I remember it's Chinese name? =P I know I know it,) and the hooking block. TThe hand ridge block and the Tan block and the hooking hand block are three of the four root blocks, from which every other Wing Chun block is based off of. The only block not present in these three moves that comprises one of the root blocks is the Bong Sau, which sort of makes sense, since the Bong Sau has no other blocks which resemble it--it sort of stands alone. The slow returning ridge hand block builds up arm strength, and once again it is teaching you the EXACT positioning for the blocks so that your base for learning Wing Chun is strong.
Those are my points. What points are there that support Wing Chun as an internal system?
-Scott
"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.
>>>What points are there that support Wing Chun as an internal system?<<<
Because Ip Ching says so, and as the great Cookie Monster once said, "That's good enough for me."
BTW, didn't we already discuss this in the "SLT fast or slow" thread?
>>>I don't think Wing Chun is an internal system, based off a collection of facts and experiences.<<<
You didn't state any "facts".
>>>What do you think? Back it up with theories and actual fact<<<
No, I don't want to. :D
Watchman®
Siu Lin Tao (Little Transmutation) Golden Bell Heavy Hei-Gung.
Chum Kue (Depressing Bridge)Light skills Hei-Gung.
Biu Gee (Darting, Thrusting, Penetrating Fingers)Dim Mak extending Chi.
All forms utilize internal energy tork and Fa Ging. www.buddhapalm.com
wing chun is definitely an internal art.
That's not very effective =P
Sam, where did you get your definitions for the sets? I've never heard them defined that way.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Siu Lin Tao (Little Transmutation) Golden Bell Heavy Hei-Gung.
Chum Kue (Depressing Bridge)Light skills Hei-Gung.
Biu Gee (Darting, Thrusting, Penetrating Fingers)Dim Mak extending Chi.
All forms utilize internal energy tork and Fa Ging. [/quote]
First, there is no definite way to translate the symbols that stand for any of the sets or the words "Wing Chun" themselves-- we can only guess. But I've always heard Sil Lim Tao to mean "Little beginning idea", Chum Kiu to mean "Searching the bridge," and "Biu Gee" to mean something about thrusting fingers. Biu Gee doesn't seem to be about Dim Mak to me, but rather about recovering the center line with damaging techniques--hence the odd angles on attacks. I don't see any evidence of showing "secret striking points" either, just the usual eyes, throat, that sort of thing.
More opinions?
-Scott
"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.
For what it is worth, William Cheung has written that the art is internal in his opinion.
First Form is covered in his book "How to Build Chi Power" and focuses on internal development.
He would agree with Sam that the third form is a dim mak form, it is written in the aforementioned book.
"Luminous beings are we."
My personal opinion is that it is internal. I'm not advanced enough to pull out any 'facts' to support my statement, other than it feels pretty ****ed internal to me, so that's where I put most of my focus when I practice.
As it was explained to me, there are internal elements in Wing Chun, but that does not make it an internal system. It is an external system because of one thing, it is not dependent on the internal. That is, Wing Chun works because of body alignment and structure not internal power. If you completely removed the internal from Wing Chun it would still be an effective art. In fact some school do not teach the internal. As has been mentioned here previously, not all school do Sil Lum Tao slowly. Some school even use dynamic tension in the first form.
Actually, one of the principles Wing Chun is based on is the principle of Yin and Yang. Therefore, Wing Chun contains both internal and external elements is equal proportions. So I prefer to think of Wing Chun as a balanced art
I'm part of the school of thought that believes every art requires both internal and external. I think this especially applies to Wing Chun.
Some people I've seen do nothing but the Chi Sau and practice the SLT as if it was qigong, but don't do the punching or drills. Those people get beaten and make Wing Chun look bad. Then there are those who do the opposite and train it as if it was kickboxing. They have a better chance in a fight.
As Fist of Legend put it,
"Hard without soft only wastes energy. Soft without hard can never strike."s
Internal, external. One doesn't exist without the other.
all we work is rooting, body alignment, structure and mechanics
the WC guys I train with were surprised at the 'real' nature of my style - if I tried using the postures of the form as they are practiced I'd get a beating. It's all about principles of movement - surely a similiar concept to WC?
There's nothing I talk about to my WC friends that doesn't appear in some form in their own system e.g rooting, power from the waist, slipping/avoiding/passing rather than blocking/attrition, unending flow of attack, no retreating, attacking the centre.
I move slowly in the form so I can move quickly - no restrictions, no tension, just fluidity. Nothing to do with building up some mystic force - just perfect shape and movement.
The biggest difference we've encountered so far is that ****ed sticking legs **** you guys do - it has really improved my awareness of the whole fight.
It's hard to stick a label on WC though as there are so many conflicting views - I have pushed with WC guys who were as soft and fluid as me, and others who were harder than a karateka. The soft guys were the hardest to fight - WC doesn't seem to work when it's hard and tense.
Wish we didn't have such a bad image :(
Anyway - in answer to the question I'd say WC was internal as you aren't reliant on conditioning, strength or speed. The guys I sparred with used technique, timing, strategy and most of all sensitivity.
"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"
I tend to agree with Highlander about there being a balance in Wing Chun's theory. Obviously, some schools teach more of a hard approach and some schools teach more of a soft approach. Wing Chun only exists in the minds of its practitioner and is therefore subject to being filtered through imperfect humans. If Wing Chun is practiced by one who doesn't understand it's internal power it will appear to be a very hard martial art. Just as Tai Chi, when taught by someone who doesn't understand its internal aspects, will look a lot like dancing rather than Kung Fu.
I have a lot of difficulty figuring out what is meant by internal power. If by internal power you mean: does Wing Chun stress and teach proper mental focus, bodily structure, and form? I'd say yes, it is meant to. The purpose of the Siu Lum Tao, according to Ip Man, was the internalizing of the Wing Chun repertoire.
So, this is all in my own humble opinion. I'm not sure what theories and facts you're interested in? Quotes from Wing Chun masters, a Wing Chun training syllabus, stories about Wing Chun masters who had cultivated enough internal power to jump 30 feet straight up, something like that?
:) Lemme know, and good luck on finding an answer to your inquiry.
Mike
>>>Wing Chun only exists in the minds of its practitioner and is therefore subject to being filtered through imperfect humans. If Wing Chun is practiced by one who doesn't understand it's internal power it will appear to be a very hard martial art.<<<
Very good point.
Watchman®
Wing chun can be practiced as an external art but is really internal.All the training(forms) is internal.
happens!
Describe HOW and WHY Wing Chun is an internal art.
How about first, what is your definition of an "internal" art?
Thanks!
Sandman[Wing Chun]
Wing Chun Forum Moderator.
Student-www.authentickungfu.com
The division of CMA into external and internal is pretty useless. All styles have elements of both, this is the meaning of yin and yang.
Literal translations of the form names:
1. Siu lim-tau: "siu" means small/little, "lim" by itself means think of, remember, study, "tau" means head. BUT, lim-tau (that's a composite word) means "idea".
2. Cham kiu: "cham" means seek, search, look for. "Kiu" means bridge, or any bridge-like structure or the beams of a structure.
3. Biu ji: "Biu" is most often written with a character meaning show, mark, symbolize or symbol etc, but there is another character pronounced exactly the same way but written slightly differently that means dart, spear, javelin or any harpoon-like weapon. "Ji" means finger, and also to point.
These are the literal translations of the characters used to write the Cantonese words, and not interpretations of the "meaning" of the forms. All the words are in Yale transcription (pinyin equivalents are: xiao niantou, xun qiao, biao zhi).
Well, I'll just link you to the thread in the Taiji and the Internal martial arts forum. Whatever Josh_f says is pretty much accurate from what my experiences.
internal/external
I believe it is, but not to the same extent as Tai Chi, Pau Kau, Hsing I. What I was told once it's a issunce of power. I've also been told to help your Wing Chun try Zhan Zhong.
John
Have little and gain;
Have much and be confused.
The yin/yang issue Northstar and the definition of external/internal by Josh_F reveals a good point. Any martial art that is relying on external power is inherently flawed. The bigger and stronger opponent will always win.
If anything, it seems to me that the goal of martial arts is to give an advantage to the studious and focused practitioner rather than the outwardly strongest. If Wing Chun or any martial art was external (assuming by external you mean totally devoid of internal development exercises) then it may as well be wrestling (not that there's anything wrong with wrestling ;) ) And if that were true, I think we'd spend most of our training time lifting weights rather than doing the forms, Chi Sao, etc.
Hopefully not being the pedantic, quote-spewing scholar that Josh_F referred to, here is a quote that gave me some insight into this discussion:
Power of mind is infinite, while brawn is limited.
-Koichi Tohei
I hope this is true, because if it's not I'll be forever getting my butt kicked! :D
Mike
If "internal" means that the yi (not li) leads the qi, how can we argue that Wing Chun is not internal?
I have heard that Yip Man himself said WC is not internal. But, I have also heard that the prevailing attitude of the time was that "internal arts are for nerds" :p
Short term, the external may produce faster use for self defence. But the internal, which takes longer to get good results from, will in the long run produce the most powerful results...
S.Teebas
How come Wing Chun is not noted as an internal art like Taiji, Xingyi, or Bagua? Or even a semi internal art like baji, Tong Bei Quan, Aikido, etc.,
Also can you internal power with the Internal-Rotated-Adduction-Stance? Is it like the standing post stance in Taiji or squatting monkey stance in Xingyi?
What about chain punching? When I did learned wing chun, chain punching seemed like a lot of arm power to me. Of course, I could of been with some guy who didn't know anything about internal wing chun or didn't bother teaching me the internal aspects of it.
Hi guys!
What do you think about this idea: Ving Tsun is both - internal and external. It depends, as always, on your enemy. If he's "weaker" you'll fight more external, if he's stronger you'll fight internal. Isn't that the idea of giving way? If you're stronger (or have more power due to a better structure) you just punch through. If you're weaker you change e. g. into Bong Sao.
Armin.
In my opinion, Wing Chun contains both internal and external elements. Why would'nt it. Both mind and body have to be developed equally to truly understand and appreciate the art. Yin and Yang - it's there.
There is something very internal about performing the siu nim tau, but then again there is something very external about kicking someones a$$ using techniques from it. Would'nt you agree? ;)
Personally, I find WIng Tsun an interesting arts, with elements in both. Although it doesn't use force with force, instead it uses sticking and listening to energy. You would think it wouldn't be external. However to my limited knowledge I haven't seen any chi cultivation exercise's you'd expect in an internal. On the other hand Sil nim tau, does place you in a meditative state and chum kui does get my chi flowing. Does this place it within a category of it's own?
wing chun have internal parth tho is basic for progresiv chi sao . chi sao alone is allmoust noting but here is strong intonjutsy for suport. not just my opinion but sure .- friendly tiger_1 :cool:
/
The only internal styles are tai chi, pa kua, hsing yi and waterboxing. (also variations of)
Wing chun is NOT an internal style.
BUT
It certaintly has internal aspects. Every kung fu style has internal aspects. If they didn't, then it wouldn't be kung fu.
Your chi is stored in the tan tien, regardless of style. Hands should be soft and hard utilizing Yin and Yang.
That's what people mean when they say that wing chun can be "internal."
>>>The only internal styles are tai chi, pa kua, hsing yi and waterboxing. (also variations of)
Wing chun is NOT an internal style.<<<
So, what is it exactly about Hsing-I (to use an example) that makes it an "internal" art?
http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF
Not to tire of learning is wisdom;
Not to weary of teaching is benevolence.
-- Tzu-kung
You might want to ask Shifu Patterson!
www.hsing-i.com
I think that the physical movements of wing chun are designed around the human body to the degree that the priciples can be used in either an internal or external interpretation. It seems a neutral design, and both methods will produce results. Or something.
(I seriously need a life.)
How it seems to be working for me is that paying mind to the principles allows me to express those principles physically. If my mind is on an 'external' application of movement, I tend to violate the principles in one form or another. For instance, if I'm using fok sao, and my mind is on the external application, I will tend to use a clamping force rather than a forward energy, and hunch over to boot. If I keep my mind on the principles of the fok sao (internal focus)while drilling, I am much more likely not to automatically use poor posture and inefficient energy when employing the fok in sparring, thereby getting much better results from that tool.
So paradoxically, by focusing 'in', I can express 'out' without having to think about 'out'. I personally think that all the forms have built into them a constantly re-inforcing internal loop.
I don't know that one can understand or achieve 'no-mind' through academic discussion of the subject. I think you have to 'just do it' :D
From Sifu Patterson's site:
"The original meanings of Internal vs. External kung fu have been largely misconstrued over the last generation due to many "oral" variations of the many different kung fu families trying to paint a picture showcasing their own individual style. So, now adays a person hears many incorrect statements regarding these differences such as External Styles are "Hard" and Internal Styles are "Soft", but in reality the original meaning of this "difference" was entirely philosophic and geographic. The original me aning of the external styles was simply that those styles were originally started by Da Mo and the ShaoLin temples (buddhist philosophy) who purportedly came from India, and was hence from outside China (External Style). And the original meaning of "Internal" was to denote those styles that were founded on the Taoist philosophy of Lao Tzu and were created inside of China (Internal Styles)."
Interesting interpretation. This definition explains your original remark.
Also this:
"It is also true, because of certain historical events, that nowadays the Internal school of thought focuses on not only self defense and external manifestations of ability, such as strength, stamina, flexibility and physical prowess, but also explores the inside of the practitioner’s development. Internal kung fu strengthens the internal organs and circulatory systems. It increases lymphatic circulation to aid the practitioner in removing toxins from the body more rapidly. It improves focus of mind and concentration of intellect. We also learn to apply the principles of Yin and Yang and the Five Elements, principles of redirection, absorption and reflection, evasion and entrapment, etc. These lessons are just as applicable strategically in a business meeting as they are in self defense and confrontation. A person need only be taught their essence of expression in the practical sense. This is also part of Internal kung fu."
This explanation fits my training in Wing Chun as well, so I don't see the big difference in my "external art". I asked my question because I have worked out with a couple of Hsing-I guys in the past and didn't see a big difference in the way they developed and issued power than what I was doing, only that the fighting structure and ways of applying power were different.
http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF
Not to tire of learning is wisdom;
Not to weary of teaching is benevolence.
-- Tzu-kung
Xingyi is an internal art because it follows the six harmonies principle. You know, whole body connection, having the "spring" between wherever and the ground (to use Josh's term), heart leading the mind leading the qi. Also, peng jin being the basic, core jin.
So, if I have a unified body structure, rooting my balance so my footwork is "springy", can express fa jing and explosive power (which I can) - doing so by training my mind to lead the energy - then doesn't that make Wing Chun an internal art by your definition?
http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF
Not to tire of learning is wisdom;
Not to weary of teaching is benevolence.
-- Tzu-kung
Why aren't people here answering my questions? How and what makes Wing Chun internal? Don't tell me to define neijia is, I already did.Don't tell me that wing chun has both aspect, tell me how and why. Don't tell me that "oh wing chun moves with intent" tell me where a high level wing chun master said that. I can source you to a bagua master saying that if you want, but not any wing chun masters.
Also, no one has answered my question on why Wing Chun isn't regarded as an internal art like Taiji or semi internal art like baji.
Or about stance training with intent. Does the IRAS provide and build internal power?
Does chain punching involve just the dantien and intent instead of arm muscles to preform? Does it have peng jin?
Also, some additional questions. Does every wing chun movement emphasises moving with intent?
Any standing excercises like standing post and squatting monkey?
In taiji, we move slow so we can try to feel the connection and use our mind to lead the qi, does wing chun focus on that or just on forms and chi sao drills and such?
I also think that internal methods take longer, but the results are usually superior, and can almost be refined indefinately. So there!
(I seriously need a life.)
All this stuff is making me internally constipated! ;)
"Always maintain forward intent."
- Kenneth Chung
Is that high enough for you? :p