buddhist way

Has any experienced wing chunner out there viewed the videos offered by the Buddhist way of Wing Chun people?(http://home.clara.net/buddhistwingchun/), also what's the scoop on their organization?

Hello,

I remember this group popping up some time in the past. I do not recall hearing anything other than negative things but all of my information is second-hand so that gives an idea of what its worth ;)

As to the idea of "teaching Wing Chun" in accordance with the original Buddhist precepts, I would have to say this is going out on a limb. What exactly are the "Buddhist" precepts of an art designed to kill and maim the opponenet with the least amount of effort? Sorry but I never thought Martial Arts and Religion were a good mix. Whiloe the culture and sometimes religous attitude may have contributed to the formation of some aspects of an art, an art designed for COMBAT is almost always seperate from religous views, no matter the prevailing beliefs.

Just my opinion nothing more, nothing less.

Peace,

Dave

Hi Dave. My teacher taught me that we are to preserve life and find the "way" through martial practice. Siu Lin Tao, little transmutation is an inward development of mind, body, spirit. Chum Que, deppressing the bridge between the other side and us. Bil Gee, Thrusting fingers, the finger of God moves us to righteousness. The Angel Michael slew the wicked for God. It is not the instrument that is evil but the intent of the wielder.

nevermind!

what happened to your first reply cowboy? Why all the anger?

how would someone go about retracting their replies?

I just went back and deleted what I wrote (edit or delete: bottom right). I was already in a foul mood prior to posting, and decided that that affected my reply, so I erased it. I wasn't angry; just annoyed.

"Ninja!...NINJA!"-Christopher George, from "Enter the Ninja"

[This message was edited by kungfu cowboy on 05-16-01 at 10:12 PM.]

all wing chun students (whether they realize it or not) are being taught buddhist principles, if not with words, then with direct physical transmission.

Buddhist principles should be held in high regard. But when I learn a martial art, all I am learning is how to fight.

However, if you mean in addition to the physical movements there is also philosophy verbally taught, I see your point.

You sure ain't learning buddhist principles just from physical motion!

"Ninja!...NINJA!"-Christopher George, from "Enter the Ninja"

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> all wing chun students (whether they realize it or not) are being taught buddhist principles, if not with words, then with direct physical transmission.
[/quote]

Ok, I'm curious as to what this means. Are you saying that if someone with no prior knowledge of buddhism learns wing chun from a non-buddhist mute,(say for experimental control purposes) could after learning wing chun, through the means of "direct physical transmission" suddenly write or converse about buddhism and buddhist principles?

"Ninja!...NINJA!"-Christopher George, from "Enter the Ninja"

i respectfully disagree, cowboy, with your statement that the physical part of wing chun does not teach buddhist ideas. let's try and see the principles in action.
chi sao- the principle of non duality is taught through the continually joined harmonious contact with your partner. The illusion of an opponet disappears to reveal unity.
the idea of detachment can be seen as we are taught to let our parts (feet, hands, elbows, etc. ) operate independently of each other.(the way our structure works)
Non resistance is another. The list keeps going. The point is that even if we dont understand these ideas intelectually we can learn them directly through physical means(experience is the best teacher) and we start applying these lessons in other areas of life.

No, the hypothetical student may not be able to write or converse about the buddhism he learned from the deaf-mute-non-buddhist teacher, but never the less he may have experienced more buddhism than a monk who only experienced buddhism through intellectual abstractions. Buddhism was meant to be experienced, not pondered.

Ok, I understand what you are saying, but it takes an intellect using language to make those connections. So, its not direct in the sense of "wow, I do the wu sao, and I done gots step 1 of enlightenment" magically implanted into your psyche. It requires an interpretation along the lines of the subject. I could just as easily interpret it as directly transmitting taoist principles or how a piston works.

"Ninja!...NINJA!"-Christopher George, from "Enter the Ninja"

When we start to interpret, we stop being here and now! Truth may take many models, but it is still truth. Be it the way a piston works or the teachings of some 2500 year old guy, the model we make of our experience is not the experience. The experience is the experience. The truth of the lesson is still transmitted, unless all of our catergorizing and model making gets in the way.

"don't think, feeeeeeel" - some cheesy kung fu flick.

Fair enough! I think I tend to over-analyze things! :)

"Ninja!...NINJA!"-Christopher George, from "Enter the Ninja"

I've always felt that the inner workings of Wing Chun are more closely related to Tao principles than Zen. But then again, Taoist authorities claim that Zen is just a re-packaged version of Tao... ;)

peace,
Jas

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The Shaolin Temple was historically a Chan (Zen) Buddhist monastery, but there is some overlap with Taoism, considering it was the prevailing belief before Bodhidharma taught buddhism to the monks. Wing Chun has its roots at Shaolin, Therefore, it has its roots in Buddhism.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Wing Chun has its roots at Shaolin, Therefore, it has its roots in Buddhism. [/quote]

That is not neccesarily true. According to Augustine Fong, Ng Mui was a Taoist Nun. This is either on the his fundamentals tape or on a tape of a seminar my Sifu went to. I will check tonight. I hope it's on the fundamentals tape, then you can check it out for yourselves. Frankly, I was quite surprised and wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't heard it myself.

So, what are the Buddhist principles behind me knocking someone's teeth out with a whipping punch?

Watchman ..... you are teaching your opponent not to eat meat (or other solid foods). :D

LMAO @ Highlander! That was funny! :D

"Ninja!...NINJA!"-Christopher George, from "Enter the Ninja"

jfbrown - very insightful. Very impressive.

"chi sao- the principle of non duality is taught through the continually joined harmonious contact with your partner. The illusion of an opponet disappears to reveal unity."
i dont think this is true. you are not in contact with your opponent the whole time as soon as a gap opens you attack the body. that sounds more like push hands.
i believe that people wwith religion can make any excuse they want for fighting when they want to.
moses killed the people who would go with him or believe the tablets
monks killed people to show them that they should have trained harder
musslums have the knife on their belts to kill the infedels.
religion has been the cause or should i say excuse for some of the worst battles in history.
benny
non believer

What little I understand of the principles of both Zen and Tao lead me to believe that Wing Chun makes better use of Tao than Zen.

Zen seems to stress transcending physicality to become all things by being no things. Fine and dandy, but tough to do when someone is raining chainpunches on you, a pretty in-your-face thing. "All things are no-things" seems rather impractical while getting your butt kicked. "All is subjective" has some merit, but its worthless unless that subjectivity has a measure of reality, which Zen defines as illusion. Illusion or not, the pain is real enough ;)

Tao seems to stress accepting the true nature of all things (including oneself) and working within that framework. So, if someone is raining chainpunches on me, I accept the true nature of this (the movement is so, the energy is such and so) as well as the true nature of myself (I am smaller and have less arm strength but good speed and accuracy), and the true nature of the 'world' (the physics of movement are thus, the laws of kinetics are yaddah yaddah, etc), and work within the true nature of the whole (if the dude comes at me like so, and I do like such, I deflect his energy, open his center line, and move my knuckles into his left nostril like thus), I prevail.

:D

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